What's with the Mandello clutch?

[Enzo]

I was reminded of this with Al's post about a Mandello. I rode a Mandello and hated the clutch. It was either ON or OFF. Scary. I take it this is a single plate clutch and mine is a double plate. Is this single plate on the Mandello also called the 'Ram' clutch?

 

 

Also, what is the purposed of this touchy clutch? Is it also used on the 1100 Sport and Daytona? Why? What other V11s does it appear on?

[callison]

Is it also used on the 1100 Sport and Daytona?

 

No.

[al_roethlisberger]

I think the single-plate unit on the V11 Sports was made by RAM, but I'm not 100% certain. Someone else may know the answer to that question.

 

As best as I can remember at this time of the night, it was installed on:

 

2001 Rosso Mandello

2002 Tenni

2002 Scura

 

.... all the other V11 Sport varieties did, and currently do, have the standard dual-disc system.

 

However, I have no personal experience with the single-plate solution, but I like my dual-disc unit just fine... so I can't offer any opinion beyond that

 

I don't really know what the advantage of the single-plate clutch was/is, other than reduced mass.

 

al

[Guest John T]

Nemo, or Enzo, or whoever you are today^_^ .....I can answer this one.

 

When the sport series came out, it was suppose to be Guzzis full out sport bike. During the development into this "sport bike" they decided to make it more of a sport bike by putting in a single plate sintered bronze clutch. These type of clutches are used in racing.

 

Guzzi tested this clutch side by side in Italy against the original dual plate design used.

 

I am told that they did 100 full throttle drag racing runs and examined the clutches. They found the dual plate design to be completely worn out while the single plate clutch was fine.

 

There is a slight downside to this design. It hooks up faster and harder than the dual disc clutch.

This is the "off/on" feeling you describe. Also, the noise it makes is opposite of the normal clutches and some people complained and some stupid dealers replaced them saying they were faulty.

 

Then Guzzi (maybe Aprilia) decided to make the sport line a "sport tourer" line, maybe as not to compete with Aprilias sportbikes.

They lengthened the frame, relaxed the steering geometry and made the bike a little more lazy and less sporty. Some people even called the first sports too twitchy and fast handling.

 

So, a few things made the single plate clutch go away.

One, it was too "racy" for some. It is not for everyone most notably the "traditional" guzzi rider who rarely gets on the bike and uses it to the max.

Two, the mission of the sport line changed and a "racing clutch" was deemed too radical.

 

Funny though, I rode an older sport with the dual disc and at first I thought it was slipping!!!

Almost too smooth!! You get used to the single plate very fast.

 

Oh yeah, very few have failed. You will hear stories of the one in Europe that grenaded in a spectactular fashion, but there is a story behind that one. It seems some poor mechanics had the engine/tranny apart many times. Most likely screwed something up and this caused the failure.

It is also important to realize that these RAM clutches are completely different from the single plate design found in the cruisers. These are really bad and fail very fast.

 

My first sport had the dual disc design and failed at about 3000 miles. Others have had this same failure. And others have complained about slipping when given the whip..

 

Too bad, it is a nice strong setup (the single plate that is )

[gthyni]

OK,

 

and the next question is

Are the single and dual plate clutches interchangable?

What do I need to get to convert my dual plate to a single

plate or vice versa? Clutch plates, of course, but otherwise,

fly wheel?

[Guest John T]

Yes, they are interchangable.

 

The whole clutch setup on the single plate system is 2.2 kilos lighter (about 4 pounds!!) as compared to the dual disc setup.

You would need everything, flywheel included to do the switchover.

 

My setup, (single plate system, lightened and balanced engine with the Carrillos) makes for a very snappy fast reving engine. Very un-Guzzi like!

[Enzo]

John,

 

This is an excellent report. I like the idea of a strong clutch, and I suppose I could get used to the snappy single plate. But, since I live in a big city with lots of stop lights, it seems like the dual plate is a better solution, even though I really thrash the Guzz in the country.

 

But you bring out another matter that just kills me about Guzzi - their inability to make up their minds about anything. I own the 2000 with the shorter wheel base. I love it. I can't imagine anyone complaining about stability on this bike. I also even like the stock suspension (but I only weigh 160 pounds). By race standards this bike is long, so I don't know what people are talking about. I've never been on a better cornering bike. It is almost weird to me how confident you feel in a sweeper on a Guzzi.

 

So, if the Serie or production MGS-O1 is a real sport bike (and its asking price represents reality), I'll trade up. And that is only if I see new positive developments at the factory. If not, this is my last Moto Guzzi.

[Guest Neronut]

I took a nice long test ride on an '02 Scura with the quick clutch. I stalled a couple of times at first but was getting used to it with just a few stop and goes. Sort of a rush when shifting. but it made me really appreciate the smooth takeoff that my LeMans has for normal riding. The stronger, fast action clutch would be my personal choice if getting a sportier bike such as the Scura.

[al_roethlisberger]

Well, regarding owning future Guzzis.... so far things are looking pretty good IMHO

 

The 2003+ Sports/LeMans have had a few incremental improvements that haven't proven problematic, and the quality control seems to have much improved

 

And then of course, there's the new Breva 750, which by all accounts seems to be a nice and well built bike. So I think it's just taken a couple/three years for Aprilia's acquisition to finally settle, and start to have a noticeable difference. Heck, for the most part, I've even had very good luck with parts availability in the last year... where back in 2002, well... heh

 

 

And in regards to faster or slower steering models, certainly there is no debating geometry.... but there several things one can do to tune either model range "either way" toward slower or faster steering... raising/lowering front or rear, adjustable steering bearings, etc.. In the case of the late model Sport/LeMans, for example, Mike Stewart says that just using different profile tires such as the Pirelli really quicken it up. I'm sure one's mileage may vary

 

From what I know, the current range is closer to the Sport1100 line of bikes in regards to handling "quickness"... longish for sure by modern standards, but not really a "sport tourer" IMHO.

 

 

In any case, I've not ridden an earlier Sport.... although I'd like to.... but I am very satisfied with how well my bike rides and handles. It's certainly more bike, than I am rider

 

Given the EFI and relatively choppy on/off throttle transitions(as compared to good carbs), I don't know if I'd prefer a edgier clutch around town But then again, if the single-plate unit is what I had from the start, I'd probably have just gotten used to it... so who knows

 

 

 

al

[belfastguzzi]

I would never have described my Scura single plate as on/off or snatchy/snappy. That's probably as I'm not comparing it to any other Guzzi clutch so wasn't expecting it act in any particular way. It's perfectly usable in any situation. I like it.

 

I'm glad to see confirmation of the robustness, as I couldn't remember where I had read about the single plate testing (as I mentioned in another thread). John T, can you remember where that was reported?

[al_roethlisberger]

I took a nice long test ride on an '02 Scura with the quick clutch. I stalled a couple of times at first but was getting used to it with just a few stop and goes. Sort of a rush when shifting. but it made me really appreciate the smooth takeoff that my LeMans has for normal riding. The stronger, fast action clutch would be my personal choice if getting a sportier bike such as the Scura.

 

Hiya Neronut!

 

....so, I see you are in Austin, TX. I was just there visiting a friend a couple months back, and couldn't find a local Guzzi dealer, just Aprilia.

 

When we were considering moving to Austin, I was contemplating opening a dealership there. Where did you get your bike?

 

al

[Orson]

....so, I see you are in Austin, TX. I was just there visiting a friend a couple months back, and couldn't find a local Guzzi dealer, just Aprilia.

 

When we were considering moving to Austin, I was contemplating opening a dealership there. Where did you get your bike?

Al,

 

When I was in the U.S. over Thanksgiving, I talked to the Aprilia Dealer in Round Rock, just north of Austin & asked him if he would start selling Guzzis.

 

He said that Aprilia had asked him to sell Guzzis but, he just doesn't have the floor space at the moment.

[Guest John T]

I'm glad to see confirmation of the robustness, as I couldn't remember where I had read about the single plate testing. John T, can you remember where that was reported?

Guzziology, by David Richardson,version 5.2 - section 10,page 29.

 

This section talks about the different clatter from the single plate clutch setup as compared to the dual disc.

 

Here is a quote.

 

"This clutch is lighter at the lever, seems to hook up better,

and tests far more durable than the more common Guzzi

two-friction plate big-twin clutch"

 

I think it was John Stoddard who told me about the drag strip starts, (for whatever that is worth.)

 

Yes this clutch can be a little more demanding in traffic and requires a smooth hand but it fits the "hotrod" mission for my Rosso Mandello. When I am cruising on the EV, I appreciate the Buick like smootheness that clutch offers.

[jrt]

Greg Field also mentions something about these 'drag strip' kinds of tests in his book. I believe it was in regard to the V11 sport, but I don't have it here in front of me.

J

[leafman60]

I have a Scura with the single plate clutch. The clutch pull is sooooo light. Also, hey, my engagement point is VERY long. It is anything but on-and-off and has a long smooth hook-up.