(Solved!) Had to get a jump start from roadside assistance; starter motor not cranking after a chilly night; intermitent issue?!

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, docc said:

Evidently, the 1999-2001 V11 are more susceptible to Non-Startus Relayitis.

Now I'm confused docc. Non-startus interruptious would mean it doesn't suffer from any starting issues. Where a bike that suffers has Startus interruptious. 

 

Ciao

[docc]

15 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Now I'm confused docc. Non-startus interruptious would mean it doesn't suffer from any starting issues. Where a bike that suffers has Startus interruptious. 

 

Ciao

Yeah, well, early V11 "Relayitis" is characterized by "non-startus".

[Kiwi_Roy]

14 hours ago, docc said:

Yeah, well, early V11 "Relayitis" is characterized by "non-startus".

Didn't the early ones 2001, 2002 have Siemens relays, I was talking with a guy yesterday who had one new back then and he pointed out the early relays weren't the best, When I bought my 2001 it had several brands of relays Siemens included, the first thing I did at your suggestion was swap in a new set of Omrons and I never had a problem, on the same topic my bike started to run rough one day, I pinned it down to the ignition switch that was measuring ~18 Ohms, still cranked ok, even 1/2 an Ohm would cripple a 2004 with start relay through the switch

Look at how the start relay 30 terminal is fed on this early version, straight from the battery through fuse 5, this will always crank. (solenoid pulling 50+ Amps for a split second)

On the other hand powering the headlight relay from the normally closed Start relay isn't a good idea.

Now look at this 2004, the power for the start relay comes from the ignition switch choking the solenoid to a fraction of its former self (< 30 Amps for seconds) and leaving it prone to Startus Interuptus

It does have a better feed to the headlight however and they did away with the flaky Voltage reference to the regulator. Because this model uses the Normally Closed Start relay contact it rules out simply re-powering the relay 30 contact to fix the starting, there are a couple of ways around that.

 

 

[docc]

18 minutes ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

Didn't the early ones 2001, 2002 have Siemens relays, I was talking with a guy yesterday who had one new back then and he pointed out the early relays weren't the best, When I bought my 2001 it had several brands of relays Siemens included, the first thing I did at your suggestion was swap in a new set of Omrons and I never had a problem, on the same topic my bike started to run rough one day, I pinned it down to the ignition switch that was measuring ~18 Ohms, still cranked ok, even 1/2 an Ohm would cripple a 2004 with start relay through the switch

Look at how the start relay 30 terminal is fed on this early version, straight from the battery through fuse 5, this will always crank.

Yes, all weak Siemens on the early V11 sports. The very first service from my dealer was a "larger" Seimens for the Start Position (#1).

Six or seven generations later, the concept of the High Current Relay carries on . . .

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you have any Guzzi that refuses to crank first of all clean and grease the battery terminals and the ground connection.

Then test the battery and starter by hot wiring the starter solenoid direct to the battery, use a wire about 3 ft long with a spade connector on one end, touch the other end on battery positive (caution make sure its in neutral). You dont need the key On for this, you are just doing a crank test, if it cranks over you know that the battery and starter are both fine.

If the engine cranks over with the hot wire but not via the normal starter circuit chances are you have Startus Interuptus.  It's not so straight forward to fix on a VII Sport as the normally closed start relay contact feeds the headlight. An easy way around this is to add a relay fed direct from the battery or hot terminal of the solenoid with the contact feeding the solenoid. The new relay coil can be triggered by the existing solenoid trigger wire with a ground wire on the other coil terminal of course.

[docc]

I hope @p6x sees this as I believe his V11 is still giving this trouble.

Thanks, again,    @Kiwi_Roy !

[p6x]

@Kiwi_Roy

I want to post a video rather than discussing my intermittent issue, but I am unable to do that at present. I have a computer issue which I am trying to solve.

My problem is very similar to that of a solenoid malfunction, such as those I had with my cars in the 70's.

I push the starter button, the oil pressure light dims, the neutral too but not as much, no crank. After several starter button pushes, spaced of a few seconds to avoid blowing the 15 Amps fuse, the starter cranks.

This only happens when the engine is cold. When I mean cold, when the ambient temperature is like today, 45 degrees F. Once the starter has cranked once, the problem vanishes; until another cold stacking. Starter cranks at each attempt.

In brief, multiple starter button pushes without doing anything else, eventually gets the starter to crank. May I also specify the crank is healthy. Not that of a weak battery.

I have not done much to rid myself of the issue, now that I know how to start it. This problem never occurred as long as the outside temperature was hot as it usually is in Texas. I discovered it during the trip I described in my initial post.

Once I fix my computer, I should be able to upload the video.

[PJPR01]

Sounds like the problem that the older Land Rovers (Defenders, Series vehicles) have with the starters.  Frequently solved by hitting it on the casing with a hammer to free it up and then they start right up.  Quite a few folks in the HLRC (Houston Land Rover club) have experienced this regularly.  Not that I'm recommending the same solution here, but is the starter an original one or does it look it's been replaced at some point?  

Presumably all of the battery connections have been tightened down sufficiently as well.

Just another thought on this...do you by any chance have a Lithium battery on the bike.  The symptoms can be exactly the same in cold weather...where the battery has to "wake up" a bit.  I've seen this on my Shorai from time to time...

[Kiwi_Roy]

7 hours ago, p6x said:

@Kiwi_Roy

 

My problem is very similar to that of a solenoid malfunction, such as those I had with my cars in the 70's.

I push the starter button, the oil pressure light dims, the neutral too but not as much, no crank. After several starter button pushes, spaced of a few seconds to avoid blowing the 15 Amps fuse, the starter cranks.

This only happens when the engine is cold. 

When you press start does the starter clunk in then just refuse to turn i.e. can't generate enough torque.

Try scraping the battery terminals and especially where the main ground connects to the gearbox.

Measure the Voltage at the starter to chassis while its trying to turn, anything over 9.5 should spin it over.

 

Or do you just get a quiet click from the relay? The lights going dim indicate low Voltage, possibly lost across the ignition switch., Measure the Voltage on the spade connector relative to chassis while you press start, if the starter is not cranking you should see 12 Volts.

Keep in mind the solenoid is designed to draw 50 Amps while it engages the starter and it's not even turning yet. As Guzzi feed it through the ignition switch you are lucky to get even half the design current so why be surprised when it doesn't work?

Finally try hot wiring the solenoid from the spade connector to the battery positive, thats how it is supposed to engage the starter, with a loud clunk. Thats the most direct way of operating the starter, if it doesn't engage and crank its a starter or battery problem (including bad connections)

I posted a sketch here

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=113795.0

[Pressureangle]

Precisely these symptoms when my starter failed. 
 

 

[p6x]

Here's the video; 5 days of cold stacking; ambient temperature 39 degF / 4 degC; recorded today 21st-Jan-2022.

Solenoid engages on 10th attempt for the cold start.

Jump to 4 minutes for the warm start test.

 

[docc]

Looks like you are pushing the start button about once per second ten times. What happens if you turn the key on and wait ten seconds before pressing the start button ?

[paulnaz]

     The way everything goes dim I would suspect the solenoid is the culprit. Of Course, ground wires first.

      Paul B

[Kiwi_Roy]

No, its not the solenoid, you are losing Voltage across the ignition switch and wiring, you can see it in the lights, there's not enough current to pull the battery down, its dropping across the resistance. I'm willing to bet if you took a jumper wire from the solenoid spade connector and touched it on battery Positive it would start every time no matter how cold. The starter solenoid is designed to draw 50+ Amps but its hampered by the switch and wiring.

It's also possible the ignition switch has a higher resistance because the grease in it is cold, cleaning and replacing the grease with Vaseline would be a temporary fix.

[PJPR01]

The other item that is less of an issue, but still something to look at once item #1 is solved.  If the start at 4 minutes truly is a warm start, then it should start up and idle perfectly instantly if properly tuned without having to gun the throttle at all.