(Solved!) Had to get a jump start from roadside assistance; starter motor not cranking after a chilly night; intermitent issue?!

[Pressureangle]

11 hours ago, p6x said:

I am not certain I agree with the statement. I love to not plan for rides; I used to jump on my bike and go without any specific destination. However I have always planned my maintenance.

We've had two different targets here. What I meant was, it's best to make things robust so that you may ride as long as possible without failure, rather than to leave something less than optimized for a convenience in maintenance later. 

Because I'm not always timely with 'heavy maintenance'.

[docc]

25 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

We've had two different targets here. What I meant was, it's best to make things robust so that you may ride as long as possible without failure, rather than to leave something less than optimized for a convenience in maintenance later. 

Because I'm not always timely with 'heavy maintenance'.

I did post that quote out of context, yet felt the wisdom still applies.

"Later year" V11 that have the dubious start wiring through the Ignition Switch began in 2002.

[stewgnu]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:16 AM, docc said:

I'm not sure what the umarked relays are in that V11 of @p6x, nor the marked front Start Relay. Last I looked the CIT are the best available V11 option when the OMRON G8HE is not available.

The "Roy Relay" that @stewgnu speaks of is the addition of a dedicated start relay in the later V11 wiring harness that, otherwise, overburdens the Ignition Switch and leads to classic Startus Interuptus.

IIRC, p6x also had this additional relay installed. First I have heard it called the "Roy Relay", but our stwegnu is a clever one, yes?  

It took me a frankly embarrassingly long time to understand what was going on with the start relay fix.

I refer to it as a royrelay in due deference. 

[guzziart]

Hey Stewgnu,

I'm with you, it took me a while to figure out what was going on here...in this thread.  A few years ago the subject came up somewhere so, I looked at the wiring diagram, saw a starter relay and figured I was fine.  This morning I pulled out the diagram for my '03 V11 Lemans, took a look and discovered that mine is pulling starter solenoid current through the ignition switch too.  I haven't had a start problem yet but suppose it would eventually happen.  The fix is probably less expensive than replacing a burned up ign sw.

So, now I guess I've got a little more work to do.  I'll have to re-read this whole thread, didn't recall seeing a step by step process but did see the 6th relay added to the bank that looks great and the CIT relay brand comments.

Art

[p6x]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:51 AM, Pressureangle said:

We've had two different targets here. What I meant was, it's best to make things robust so that you may ride as long as possible without failure, rather than to leave something less than optimized for a convenience in maintenance later. 

Because I'm not always timely with 'heavy maintenance'.

Technology Livecycle Management:

Reliability Engineering:

Maintenance programs are largely provided by the Sustaining organization and are best described as a hybrid of assembly/disassembly guidelines, used initially by Manufacturing. For some which are more reliant on 3rd party equipment, the programs are based on OEM maintenance manuals and recommendations.

Over time, maintenance programs are supplemented with sporadic best practices, lessons learned and technical alerts (all usually triggered by Maintenance observations).

Owners made progress in using RCM (Reliability Centered Maintenance) to improve the maintenance programs for several technologies and focus less on time-based maintenance.

The selection of RCM initiatives and other Sustaining priorities is largely subjective, and a methodical data-driven set of rules does not exist. Outcomes of the failure and investigation process are reasonable with high visibility (C, M) failures when considering the links to root causes and required actions, as there is usually a suitably strong investigation team assigned for the duration needed.

However, the business lacks a holistic prioritization process for reliability investigations, appropriately trained people (especially in the current DIY Maintenance mindset) , and necessary data access to drive concrete failure analysis efficiently for lower visibility (and often more frequent) failures. Finally, visibility on TCO is exceptionally poor for most technologies.

Thoughts:

Most of the recurrent issues that affect our motorcycles (any brand and model) are described and recorded in the forums.

There is no Motorcycle manufacturer effort to drive the process. Their involvement seem to stop after they have designed the bike, industrialized it, and sold it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

P6X,

 That's very thoughtful but I have one question

Since none of the Guzzi schematics show that there are two solenoid coils and the factory only provide a 15 Amp fuse to protect a circuit that can pull up to 60 Amps can you really say they were designed?

I put it to you that the factory engineers don't know there are two coils and they measured the current at the solenoid spade terminal with a multimeter, 10 Amps so lets put a 15 Amp fuse to protect the circuit.

I have measured 60 Amps there but only for a split second. If its not wired right the current is throttled and as a consequence the solenoid only develops a fraction of the pull its capable of and you get the dreaded click.

I also see evidence of the factory thrashing around adding extra relays to try and solve the problem as for example in the later model Griso and Norge 1200s, if they would only draw the coils correctly a light bulb might turn on.

Cheers

Roy

 

[guzziart]

Hi,

FWIW, I installed a "high current" starter relay as described here previously.  I got a relay & harness assembly from Greg Bender (This Old Tractor) that was basically "plug and play".  His assembly comes with a relay base that piggy backs on to the existing relay bank, a 30/87 harness runs down to the starter solenoid (one lead plugs into starter, the other plugs into existing 87 from OE start relay) and a fused batt Pos lead to HC relay term 30.  It works great.

On another note, I checked solenoid draw.  With the engine cold, jumping from bat Pos to the solenoid terminal on the starter my intial draw was 7amps and as the starter engaged and began cranking the draw dropped to 4amps.  On my 2nd attempt the intial draw was 4amps and remained at 4 amps.  I didn't try a 3rd time.  

Oh...this was on my '03 Lemans.

PS - I also posted this at Starter Interuptus thread.

[p6x]

7 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

P6X,

 That's very thoughtful but I have one question

Since none of the Guzzi schematics show that there are two solenoid coils and the factory only provide a 15 Amp fuse to protect a circuit that can pull up to 60 Amps can you really say they were designed?

I put it to you that the factory engineers don't know there are two coils and they measured the current at the solenoid spade terminal with a multimeter, 10 Amps so lets put a 15 Amp fuse to protect the circuit.

I have measured 60 Amps there but only for a split second. If its not wired right the current is throttled and as a consequence the solenoid only develops a fraction of the pull its capable of and you get the dreaded click.

I also see evidence of the factory thrashing around adding extra relays to try and solve the problem as for example in the later model Griso and Norge 1200s, if they would only draw the coils correctly a light bulb might turn on.

Cheers

Roy

 

@Kiwi_Roy

I have absolutely no idea on what were the requirements to get the V11 family together in Guzzi under Aprilia's Beggio.

We know that Aprilia was in financial difficulty that resulted in the Piaggio Group's take over.

Before Aprilia, De Tomaso was running the show. The Moto Guzzi design bureau had a budget, and the sustaining  engineer (if there was one), another to solve whatever issues that came after the industrialization. This would have been typical. What we know, only the show stopper problems were remediated.

I would propose they were trying to get by with minimal or skeleton budget.

Even today, we do not hear anything about the V100 Mandello. We are in May now, and no pre-series bikes have been released, there is no schedule and no information about it. I only found one obscure Italian journalist who said the V100 will come out at the end of 2022, for a 2023 release. He did not say where he got the information. The fact that Guzzi/Piaggio are not saying anything is actually very edifying.

But you are correct fuse wise. Before the surgery, my V11 would consume 15 Amps fuses like there was no tomorrow. Like there was a fault.

[docc]

2 hours ago, p6x said:

@Kiwi_Roy

I have absolutely no idea on what were the requirements to get the V11 family together in Guzzi under Aprilia's Beggio.

We know that Aprilia was in financial difficulty that resulted in the Piaggio Group's take over.

Before Aprilia, De Tomaso was running the show. The Moto Guzzi design bureau had a budget, and the sustaining  engineer (if there was one), another to solve whatever issues that came after the industrialization. This would have been typical. What we know, only the show stopper problems were remediated.

I would propose they were trying to get by with minimal or skeleton budget.

Even today, we do not hear anything about the V100 Mandello. We are in May now, and no pre-series bikes have been released, there is no schedule and no information about it. I only found one obscure Italian journalist who said the V100 will come out at the end of 2022, for a 2023 release. He did not say where he got the information. The fact that Guzzi/Piaggio are not saying anything is actually very edifying.

But you are correct fuse wise. Before the surgery, my V11 would consume 15 Amps fuses like there was no tomorrow. Like there was a fault.

There was a gap of 4-6 years between De Tomaso and Ivano Beggio while Moto Guzzi was under holding company management beginning with Finprogetti 1994-96, then Trident Rowan Group '96-'99 or 2000. The exact dates are hard to verify. Curiously, the V11 was developed and released under this management, before Aprilia. Even more curious how the design of the V11 Sport (drawn single handedly, in one night, by Luciano Marabese) was adopted and put into production as Marabese had said he produced the design "unasked for."

Apparently, Marabese and Beggio had a close relationship, so I ponder whether Beggio had significant influence at Moto Guzzi before he took over in 2000.

[docc]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:07 AM, p6x said:

Technology Livecycle Management:

Reliability Engineering:

Maintenance programs are largely provided by the Sustaining organization and are best described as a hybrid of assembly/disassembly guidelines, used initially by Manufacturing. For some which are more reliant on 3rd party equipment, the programs are based on OEM maintenance manuals and recommendations.

Over time, maintenance programs are supplemented with sporadic best practices, lessons learned and technical alerts (all usually triggered by Maintenance observations).

Owners made progress in using RCM (Reliability Centered Maintenance) to improve the maintenance programs for several technologies and focus less on time-based maintenance.

The selection of RCM initiatives and other Sustaining priorities is largely subjective, and a methodical data-driven set of rules does not exist. Outcomes of the failure and investigation process are reasonable with high visibility (C, M) failures when considering the links to root causes and required actions, as there is usually a suitably strong investigation team assigned for the duration needed.

However, the business lacks a holistic prioritization process for reliability investigations, appropriately trained people (especially in the current DIY Maintenance mindset) , and necessary data access to drive concrete failure analysis efficiently for lower visibility (and often more frequent) failures. Finally, visibility on TCO is exceptionally poor for most technologies.

Thoughts:

Most of the recurrent issues that affect our motorcycles (any brand and model) are described and recorded in the forums.

There is no Motorcycle manufacturer effort to drive the process. Their involvement seem to stop after they have designed the bike, industrialized it, and sold it.

This is brilliant and so applies to our community experience. I had to save this and print it for future reference.

@p6x, could you help with some definitions?

                                          >   "  . . . high visibility (C, M) failures . . ."  ["C, M" = ? ]

                                          >   " . . . visibility on TCO is exceptionally poor . . ."  [ "TCO" = ? ]

[p6x]

13 hours ago, docc said:

  >   "  . . . high visibility (C, M) failures . . ."  ["C, M" = ? ]

                                          >   " . . . visibility on TCO is exceptionally poor . . ."  [ "TCO" = ? ]

Catastrophic; Major (order of classification of failures)

Total Cost of Ownership

[p6x]

@docc TCO, is something I keep track of for all my vehicles.

I do not have an unlimited budget, and knowing TCO is primordial. Some unforeseen costs may make ownership unsustainable.

 

 

[docc]

I mean, these statements so describe this community's technical raison d'être, IMO:

" Over time, maintenance programs are supplemented with sporadic best practices, lessons learned and technical alerts (all usually triggered by Maintenance observations). "

" However, the business lacks a holistic prioritization process for reliability investigations, appropriately trained people (especially in the current DIY Maintenance mindset) , and necessary data access to drive concrete failure analysis efficiently for lower visibility (and often more frequent) failures."

And the truth of this observation:

" There is no Motorcycle manufacturer effort to drive the process. Their involvement seem to stop after they have designed the bike, industrialized it, and sold it. "

I have long said that passenger vehicles, in particular, and consumer products, in general, are designed with two purposes: to assemble, and to sell.

 

[po18guy]

6 hours ago, docc said:

I have long said that passenger vehicles, in particular, and consumer products, in general, are designed with two purposes: to assemble, and to sell.

The same with YouTube channels. Pure clickbait.