Anybody know which ports on the broad sump to the cooler is which?

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, bbolesaz said:

Just an idea - The fans that cool PC cases are 12V DC and come in various sizes.  Who needs a thermostatic switch, either hard wire it or put a simple handlebar switch.

I mentioned this possibility to John about a year ago. There are different sizes and some are designed for flow and some for pressure. Tons of options. If my bike suffered hot oil this would be what I'd do but it doesn't seem to. I think John would be better investing in a redesigned 1/2 fairing along the lines of an MGS-01. Something that didn't involve hacking the original Australia fairing of course. There's a good reason the MGS doesn't have a full fairing. Reading about the Magni prototype bikes Ted Stolaski had all those years ago and their full fairing made me think how ridiculous they were running those. 

Ciao

[Chris Wilson]

Exhaust wrapping might help to keep heat out of the enclosed area too.

[Weegie]

Problem with fans are space but I hear you all.

@Tomchri that's my issue way too anal, most riding HiCams don't bother installing anything, just thrash the living daylights out them. Stock a lot of these engines will be running with pressure in the 40s due to the weak spring and they don't appear to self destruct (oil pump excepted) but I'm preaching to the converted you know all that already.

My personal theory is the HiCam was derived from a race engine and rushed into production as Guzzi were in a bad way and needed sales fast. However they then proceeded to tune the thing to within an inch of its life. Nobody I know with the stock Daytona has issues, it's a much happier and tolerant engine, yet the C kit only amounts to around a mere 6BHP.

It also didn't help in those days that quality control was nonexistant questionable.

Chuck states they only gave you the Centauro assembled to ensure you got all the bits.

Then there's Pete's story about the Centauro that never ran right and turned out the factory installed a C kit cam in one head and a B kit cam in the other.

Thank you to all for time and suggestions

John

[Weegie]

10 hours ago, Chris Wilson said:

Exhaust wrapping might help to keep heat out of the enclosed area too.

I don't think it would make much difference, TBH & if anything might make thing marginally worse. I suppose it depends on whose cool aid you drink.

The argument AFAIK for lagging is to keep the exhaust gas hot increasing velocity and moving hot gas clear of the head quicker and to keep external temps down. 

I reckon if anything though all it really does is marginally detract from head cooling, by preventing heat from radiating from the head/headers, either way I don't think there's a lot in it.

The bike acutally has ceramic coated pipes, inside and out, that was to keep under fairing temps down, but on reflection was probably a poor move.

@Lucky Phil I hear you, you've probably given up on making suggestions to me and I understand why. As it is I'm enormously grateful as it was due to your interventions and suggestions that got me a runner in the first place

1) I'll serially pipe the coolers and see what happens

2) Run the bike without the fairings to see what happens.

Based on the outcomes of 1&2 I can then either try to get a 1/2 fairing made to give me a less temperamental mount (and just store the Australia fairing) or juggle some more with the coolers.

Keeps me out the pub (sometimes)

[Chris Wilson]

"The argument AFAIK for lagging is to keep the exhaust gas hot increasing velocity and moving hot gas clear of the head quicker and to keep external temps down. "

I was under the assumption that the theory on this to keep 'internal' temperatures up at the furthest point and thereby increasing draw through the entire engine, a negative pressure turbo charger if you will.

Anyhow, looking at the design of the bike dispassionately, there would no worse place to mount a cooling element than in close proximity to the hottest external part of the engine.

Further the pipes are blackened to increase radiation.

So, if you insulated the part that wants to reject heat against the part that doesn't want to absorb it perhaps there maybe a benefit?

For example if you raised the exhaust temp by say 30C by insulation and lowered the ambient heat in that area by 10C so that the oil cooler may have a chance to run cooler.

And I don't think that raising the exhaust header temp by 30C will relate to the block being raised by the same amount since it must get past the point of contact through a gasket.

If flow reversion worries you then that's the point of the wrap, to promote flow towards heat.

Put it this way, does double walling headers really effect the engines state of tune? Do heat shields?

Probably not by much but do they reduce temps in the local area?

Absolutely!

Not much to loose but much to gain.

Chris.

 

 

[Weegie]

You're probably right @Chris Wilson 

So the theory is to increase cylinder scavenging?

AFAIK ceramic coating is more effective than lagging and the exhaust system already has that along it's full length, both internally and externally.

Personally I don't think it makes much (any?) difference to exhaust gas temp or scavenging. It reason I did it was in an effort to keep faing temps and everything enclosed therein, lower......................but for good or bad it has already been done

I don't think the exhaust headers' radiant heat impact on the oil cooler(s) when on the move, heat will be drawn rearwards.

Crawling or stopped in traffic is a different issue

[Chris Wilson]

Radiant heat is little effected by gas flow and air draught.

Quick question, I get why black on the pipes looks good but why adopt a coating that slows heat transfer and then paint it black?

It's the most emissive tone and if the goal was to prevent transfer then surely white was a better option?

By the way, lovely bike.

Chris.

 

 

[Kevin_T]

John, can you give us a picture of your spark plugs and do a compression test. I know what can you tell by that , but a little information is better then none. I'm sure you've gone over this a 100 times but I was wondering about cylinder pressure. You could reduce your compression ratio by retarding your cam a few degrees it might give you what you need and wouldn't cost any money.

I like the fan idea how many watts is it? Before you do anything more with the oil coolers I think would remove the turn signals and try some hybrid fairing. Of course if your stuck in traffic a fan is the only real solution and that's limited. 

[Weegie]

@Kevin_T I've only done a compression test on a cold engine and the pressures were identical on both sides at 135psi give or take a psi or so. The throttle was wide open, I was expecting at least another 10psi and thought it low. There does not appear to be any oil transfer to the cylinders/throttle bodies nor crankcase pressurisation so I ASS-ume the rings are doing what they're meant to and nothing is passing.

I really need to check it on a warm engine but it's pretty dammed chilly outside at the moment.

Generally spark plugs tend to be black on the sooty or ocassionally wet side, from what I understand the engine runs rich not lean.

It has a Creedon chip in it currently

I was going to ask why remove the indicators, but looking I see they are partially in the way of the cooling ducts, so reckon that's what you're thinking about

@Chris Wilson the black was just for aesthetics, white would have been technically the correct colour to choose, but at the time of sending the pipes out for coating I didn't know about the degree of engine overheating taking place and the prrimary reason was not engine temp but to reduce underfairing (and the fairing itself) temps.

Of course you're right about radiant heat, I always hated heat ransfer as a subject. Anyway as I've said I don't think there is much else I could do to insulate the pipes apart from maybe getting them coated white, but IMHO it's tinkering around the edges. I ran both coolers seperately in tests, the OEM cooler sits lower and is spaced further from the pipes. The result of that was a small increase in temp even though the OEM is larger.

Re fans I'll need to look at positioning again and if it would be possible to get something behind the cooler. Last time I looked at this, I tried to move the cooler forward a little then I had clearance at the rear but at higher fork compression the cooler would have come into contact with the front wheel.

Ideally if I could relocate the coils moving them rearwards (they sit above and behind the cooler) I could install a larger cooler, but that's not exactly easy either. They were mounted there in the first place (by Magni and Guzzi) because there's precious little other places to put them.

John

[Chuck]

135 sounds really low to me. Can you do a leak down?

[Weegie]

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

135 sounds really low to me. Can you do a leak down?

I agree Chuck but it also struck me as very strange that both sides were identical to within a few psi.

It's a decent tester too not a really cheap one

I'll try it again to check, I could also try a wet compression test, which I haven't tried.

Can't do a leak down as I don't have access to shop air unfortunately as that's really what I'd like to try

Better do that before I empty the sump, which I was just about to do, to start looking at cooler pipe runs

[Weegie]

Plugs

[Weegie]

Must have made an arse of the last tests, no clue but apologies

Just reran the tests, Cold Engine, Air Filter in place throttle body butterflies WOT

Right 160psi

Left 145psi

Seems reasonable enough to me. Left isn't great but no real cause for concern, unless other beg to differ.

[Lucky Phil]

4 hours ago, Weegie said:

Must have made an arse of the last tests, no clue but apologies

Just reran the tests, Cold Engine, Air Filter in place throttle body butterflies WOT

Right 160psi

Left 145psi

Seems reasonable enough to me. Left isn't great but no real cause for concern, unless other beg to differ.

Here's some oil pressure info for you with a video that might be of interest to you John. Also on COG

Ciao

https://www.guzzi-forum.de/Forum/index.php?topic=55424.msg812499#new

[Weegie]

This the thread you're referring to @Lucky Phil on COG (I'm still awaiting approval to join the Guzzi Forum DE)

http://www.centauro-owners.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2752

If it is that's interesting for sure but he certainly has problems

John