I'm baak..

[docc]

14 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

You can't just re engage the autopilot with the aircraft in an out of control attitude and it'll fly you out of it. 

Ciao

Yeah, I tried that with some wild chick I dated in college and it didn't work, either . . . 

 

[Scud]

23 minutes ago, docc said:

Yeah, I tried that with some wild chick I dated in college and it didn't work, either . . . 

 

Thread drift noted and approved.

Continue the story...

[docc]

7 hours ago, Chuck said:

from California making it rain. *Somebody's* gotta do it, and they leave it to me. I hadn't been out in 2 years, so they were in pretty dire straits. They don't have to worry for a while now.. "unprecedented" rain fall and cold temps for 3 weeks in the LA area.

Naturally, it turned sunny and started warming up when we left.

For whatever reason.. my Galaxy Tab4 doesn't play well with this site. Won't let me post or answer PMs, etc.

Right? So, a guy goes back to US Indiana in January and has something to say about the crappy California weather?   

[docc]

Here's to the frost on your pumpkin!

[Twin AH]

Ya Docc that's not even close to the negative temps were in........... Ugg.  

But cool pic.

[p6x]

17 hours ago, po18guy said:

At least it wasn't on an Airbus where each pilot hides his controls from the other.

Have you read "Sully's" book? he stated how the FBW commands contributed to manage the A320 glide successfully.

 

[p6x]

11 hours ago, docc said:

Here's to the frost on your pumpkin!

Does the starter cranks on demand?

[docc]

46 minutes ago, p6x said:

Does the starter cranks on demand?

Only trouble from that trip was three hours of salty roads to get home. And the special patina that gave many of the fasteners….

[Chuck]

I depatinized the fasteners on the Mighty Scura when I brought it back from SoCal. The Skorp? Not so much. I *did* get the worst of it off, though. It's an awesome little motorbike, just the same.

[docc]

43 minutes ago, Chuck said:

I depatinized the fasteners on the Mighty Scura when I brought it back from SoCal. The Skorp? Not so much. I *did* get the worst of it off, though. It's an awesome little motorbike, just the same.

+1 on that!

[p6x]

22 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

Nah mate, remember that commercial aircraft are flying on autopilot most of the time.

Then airline procedure demands that only one pilot is flying if flying manually.

On an Airbus, if both sidesticks are used at the same time, the inputs are algebraically added (with limits), just the same as manual inputs to B737 control wheels, except digitally instead of hand force.
If both sidesticks are used, two SIDE STICK PRIORITY lights on the glareshield come on, a loud "DUAL INPUT" message is played every 5 sec, and a post flight report goes back to the airline.

Not only can both pilots see each other's sidesticks, three computers are monitoring as well. The pilot can't hide on a modern aircraft.

If I understood correctly, on a B 767, left and right elevator surfaces could be moved in different directions from opposing input from the captain and first officer control columns.

This was illustrated in the Egypt Air Flight 990; here's the NTSB link: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAB0201.pdf

Jump to page 63.

[MartyNZ]

On 1/7/2022 at 11:52 AM, p6x said:

If I understood correctly, on a B 767, left and right elevator surfaces could be moved in different directions from opposing input from the captain and first officer control columns.

Yes, many older aircraft designs using cables from the flight deck to the control surfaces had provisions in case there was a mechanical jam or breakage. The aircraft still had to be able to land safely if say the co-pilots cable run jammed. Then there would be an indication that something is wrong, such as the co-pilot not able to move his control column, and the captain using more effort. If there was dual opposing inputs, then a mechanism like a spring cartridge would allow it, but increase the effort for both. This is not unique to the B767, but is not possible on more modern "fly by wire" aircraft. 

[p6x]

12 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

Yes, many older aircraft designs using cables from the flight deck to the control surfaces had provisions in case there was a mechanical jam or breakage. The aircraft still had to be able to land safely if say the co-pilots cable run jammed. Then there would be an indication that something is wrong, such as the co-pilot not able to move his control column, and the captain using more effort. If there was dual opposing inputs, then a mechanism like a spring cartridge would allow it, but increase the effort for both. This is not unique to the B767, but is not possible on more modern "fly by wire" aircraft. 

Two analogies came to mind;

For both AF447 and Egypt Air 990, one pilot in command was not aware of the input from the other pilot.

On AF447, the 1st officer was pulling on the joystick.

On Egypt Air 990 the 1st officer was pushing the control column.

On the Air France flight the pilot sitting on the left was oblivious of the 1st officer action. On Egypt air, the Captain was pulling on the Control Column from the right hand position, but was not aware the 1st officer was pushing it forward.

If I am correct, older planes had control column input mirrored.On the newer aircraft models, whatever is done on the joystick or control column is not repeated.

[po18guy]

9 minutes ago, p6x said:

Two analogies came to mind;

For both AF447 and Egypt Air 990, the other pilot was not aware of the input from the other pilot.

On AF447, the 1st officer was pulling on the joystick.

On Egypt Air 990 the 1st officer was pushing the control column.

On the Air France flight the pilot sitting on the left was oblivious of the 1st officer action. On Egypt air, the Captain was pulling on the Control Column from the right hand position, but was not aware the 1st officer was pushing it forward.

If I am correct, older planes had control column input mirrored.On the newer aircraft models, whatever is done on the joystick or control column is not repeated.  

Autopilot is a doubled-edged sword. It helps alleviate pilot fatigue, but it in some way relegates the pilot to "aircraft attendant." When it comes time to do some emergency seat of the pants flying, we see some spectacular and tragic results. Similar things happen in cars and trucks, but planes make the news.

[Lucky Phil]

21 minutes ago, po18guy said:

Autopilot is a doubled-edged sword. It helps alleviate pilot fatigue, but it in some way relegates the pilot to "aircraft attendant." When it comes time to do some emergency seat of the pants flying, we see some spectacular and tragic results. Similar things happen in cars and trucks, but planes make the news.

Nope don't agree. The AP is used to relieve the pilots from hours of tedious "stick and rudder" work that simply tires them out mentally and is of no benefit or utility to maintaining or improving hands on flying skills. Better to have the pilots mentally fresh and alert for the approach/landings and take off/departure phases and also better monitor systems and navigation. A commercial pilot gets plenty of flying practice in the sim and daily approaches, landings, take offs and departures. 

Do your riding and driving skills improve by hours or endless droning along a freeway manually keeping your car exactly on speed to avoid speeding fines? Of course not, same with piloting. I have friends that use similar arguments about "Active cruise control" which is one of the best things with a modern car. Brilliant thing that relieves the driver of mentally sapping tedium and allows them to focus on more important aspects of driving.

A functioning AP system is such a high priority on a commercial jet that trying to get approval to fly without at least one system operational even for a short leg to a main base/port for repairs is almost impossible. It's a very high priority system. 

The majority of commercial piloting issues these days are not about automation but training and discipline in the cockpit and in the airline and regulatory body systems of governance.

Ciao