Triple clamp musings.

[Lucky Phil]

After years of discussion about the supposed change in fork angles via the triple clamps for later V11 Sports (post early 99 models) I took the opportunity to measure the top triple Scudd sent to me and I received today. If the fork angle had been changed by machining the clamps there's no evidence of it that I can see. On the granite surface plate the upper clamp fork bores are perpendicular to the stem bore so there's not angle change there. Another V11 myth debunked?

Ciao     

[Scud]

Glad to know it arrived - faster than expected. That clamp was from a 2004 bike. Are you going to put it on your Greenie?

[po18guy]

Any discernible difference in offset? It's meant to clamp 54mm tubes. Are the early V11 fork tubes that size?

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, Scud said:

Glad to know it arrived - faster than expected. That clamp was from a 2004 bike. Are you going to put it on your Greenie?

Sorry Scud I meant to PM you but had to step away for a from the computer. Truly amazing speed for this to arrive from the US, thanks again, much appreciated. I'll get the package in the post first thing Monday and I have southern hemisphere spring and detent bearing supplies for anyone thats in need.

Yes for my bike. I have some late 43mm forks for it with Andreani cartridges and I'll machine up a Titanium axle. Then a set of PVM wheels and a machined rear bevel box like this and the MGS-01. That's the plan.

Ciao  

[Lucky Phil]

18 minutes ago, po18guy said:

Any discernible difference in offset? It's meant to clamp 54mm tubes. Are the early V11 fork tubes that size?

Yes they are.

Ciao

 

[GuzziMoto]

13 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

After years of discussion about the supposed change in fork angles via the triple clamps for later V11 Sports (post early 99 models) I took the opportunity to measure the top triple Scudd sent to me and I received today. If the fork angle had been changed by machining the clamps there's no evidence of it that I can see. On the granite surface plate the upper clamp fork bores are perpendicular to the stem bore so there's not angle change there. Another V11 myth debunked?

Ciao     

That is good to know. It never made sense to me that the factory would have done that.

I don't doubt that the later bikes have less rake angle (or more, depending on how you look at it) and more wheelbase, but likely they did that in the frame and not the triples.

[docc]

Both the early Short Frame and the LongFrame beginning in 2002 have the same rake. The idea that the very earliest of the Sport had a different set of triples was asserted by Greg Field with a reference to a Technical Service Bulletin and specific part numbers.  I recall finding the earliest V11 triples were the same as the previous 1100-Sport-i. @Lucky Phil, did the triple you measured have the specific part numbers shown in the "Geometry" thread?

"Does it read "01493100" or "01493130" (both early) or "501452" (most late)?"

 

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, docc said:

Both the early Short Frame and the LongFrame beginning in 2002 have the same rake. The idea that the very earliest of the Sport had a different set of triples was asserted by Greg Field with a reference to a Technical Service Bulletin and specific part numbers.  I recall finding the earliest V11 triples were the same as the previous 1100-Sport-i. @Lucky Phil, did the triple you measured have the specific part numbers shown in the "Geometry" thread?

"Does it read "01493100" or "01493130" (both early) or "501452" (most late)?"

 

My original triple has 501452 (so later "supposed relaxed angle I assume) on it docc and I haven't measured it as it's on the bike. The triple Scud sent me is 501486 however it is the latest type with the clip ons mounted on top of the triple clamp and therefor it has bolt holes for the clipon lugs and a different relief cast into the face. Both are 40mm offset. My reading of the triple clamp theory and correct me if I'm wrong was that the earlier bikes had a particular type inherited from the 1100 Sport possibly? (@ 45mm offset) then pretty early they "relaxed" the angle and that was what they stuck with for all later iterations? That was the "theory" anyway from what I can deduce? If that's correct I'd expect to see the triple Scud sent me show that slightly canted angle between the stem bore and the fork bore which it doesn't have. 

I actually suspect that the triple clamp differences was that they simply used the 45mm offset 1100 Sport clamps on the earlier bikes then pretty quickly decided to reduce the offset to 40mm to increase the trail and give it some more stability. I've never thought that the 1/2 degree canting of the fork bores was a realistic situation but I'm open to be corrected. Re reading doccs link Greg Field says that the later bikes from Le mans onwards went back to the "non canted clamps" which is what Scud sent me.

Looks like I need to pull my top triple and measure it as well. Bugger. 

Ciao

[docc]

There, apparently, were no angle or offset changes in the 5014xx series of clamps across the V11 range. The change was actually between the very earliest Sports produced in 1999 and before about March 2000 with the clamp numbers 01493xxx.

Your theory that the difference was actually the 45mm --> 40mm offset, rather than the "1/2º" change is compelling. That trail stability would certainly help explain reports of instability from the very earliest Sports using the 1100 Sport-i clamps.

 

[footgoose]

No opinion on rake angle but...

It seems that some of the earliest of the V11 Sport used at least the upper plate from the old SportI because my early '00 has the 01493100 plate. I wouldn't call it gunmetal grey but it's obvious how this could happen.

One 'could' deduce from this list that there are 3 possible upper plates for the 2000 sport. The early 01493100 that is on mine, the 3130 and 3131 listed for 2000 (there was nothing defining the difference of these two besides price) And take into consideration how screwed up parts catalogs can be.

 

I used Harpers fiche and pricing

 

98-00 V11 Sport/Mandello

01493131      $121.18

01493130      $240.92

01493140       black

 

96-99 SportI

01493100 gunmetal grey  $200.92

01493101 light color          $200.92

 

01-02 V11 LM/Sport

01493160  $547.50

[docc]

Those Harper "98-00 Sport/ Mandello" and "01-02 Lemans/Sport" are known to be in error and have created tremendous confusion and parts errors in the past.

Part of the trouble is including the 2001 Mandello in the 98-00 category, then having a 01-02 category that spans the significant changes between the "1st Gen" ShortFrame and the "2nd Gen" LongFrame (much more than the frame changed). There are also different numbers for the upper and lower clamps.

 

I recall the SpineRaid that @footgoose's January 2000 black Sport, @Pressureangle's 1100 Sport-i, and my March 2000 Sport were all in the garage area. We found it telling that their clamp numbers were the 0149xxx and mine are 5014xx (like @Lucky Phil's February 2000 Sport.

[Lucky Phil]

59 minutes ago, docc said:

There, apparently, were no angle or offset changes in the 5004xx series of clamps across the V11 range. The change was actually between the very earliest Sports produced in 1999 and before about March 2000 with the clamp numbers 01493xxx.

Your theory that the difference was actually the 45mm --> 40mm offset, rather than the "1/2º" change is compelling. That trail stability would certainly help explain reports of instability from the very earliest Sports using the 1100 Sport-i clamps.

 

 

27 minutes ago, docc said:

Those Harper "98-00 Sport/ Mandello" and "01-02 Lemans/Sport" are known to be in error and have created tremendous confusion and parts errors in the past.

Part of the trouble is including the 2001 Mandello in the 98-00 category, then having a 01-02 category that spans the significant changes between the "1st Gen" ShortFrame and the "2nd Gen" LongFrame (much more than the frame changed). There are also different numbers for the upper and lower clamps.

 

I recall the SpineRaid that @footgoose's January 2000 black Sport, @Pressureangle's 1100 Sport-i, and my March 2000 Sport were all in the garage area. We found it telling that their clamp numbers were the 0149xxx and mine are 5004xx (like @Lucky Phil's February 2000 Sport.

Interesting docc. I'm used to Italian parts manuals but the Guzzi v11 manuals are extra confusing. I was trying to decipher front axle variations yesterday because from the first v11 to the final v11 there were at least 5 variations in forks and 3 different axles and spacers. In one manual the model applicability was listed as LM-S then another variant was NC-RC-T6 and the last RC-T5. I assume Nero Corse, Rosso Corse Le Mans and Sport and Tenni 5 and 6. I wasn't aware of a Tenni 5 or 6 and couldn't find any differences in Tenni models across time? It also means a Tenni has the same axle as a Ohlins equipped bike although it uses Marzocchi forks? The Tenni forks were also Ti coated which I didn't realise until looking at images.

Ciao        

[docc]

I rather doubt "T5/T6" refers to Tenni as those were not produced alongside the "NC/RC." Perhaps @footgoose can shed light on the Tenni axle question as he has now equipped his lovely Tenni with Öhlins forks from a Rosso Corsa.

This 5mm change in offset discovery may be one of the unsolved mysteries of the very, very early (pre-February 2000 build date) Sport that had us chasing the elusive and dubious "1/2º" . . .

FWIW, both my March 2000 Sport and Lucky Phil's February 2000 fall within the frame number cutoff Greg Field originally posted, but both have the later 5014xx series triple clamps.  I'm also not sure that the clamp change is consistent with the change from a screwed axle to a nutted axle. (Mine is nutted. @Lucky Phil? @footgoose?)

[Lucky Phil]

9 minutes ago, docc said:

I rather doubt "T5/T6" refers to Tenni as those were not produced alongside the "NC/RC." Perhaps @footgoose can shed light on the Tenni axle question as he has now equipped his lovely Tenni with Öhlins forks from a Rosso Corsa.

This 5mm change in offset discovery may be one of the unsolved mysteries of the very, very early (pre-February 2000 build date) Sport that had us chasing the elusive and dubious "1/2º" . . .

FWIW, both my March 2000 Sport and Lucky Phil's February 2000 fall within the frame number cutoff Greg Field originally posted, but both have the later 5004xx series triple clamps.  I'm also not sure that the clamp change is consistent with the change from a screwed axle to a nutted axle. (Mine is nutted. @Lucky Phil? @footgoose?)

Mines "nutted". They went from Nutted to screwed and back to Nutted again during the life of the bike and 25/20 axles to 30/25 and 40mm forks to 43mm forks both with 54mm uppers. What do you think T5 and T6 are docc?

ciao 

[docc]

24 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Mines "nutted". They went from Nutted to screwed and back to Nutted again during the life of the bike and 25/20 axles to 30/25 and 40mm forks to 43mm forks both with 54mm uppers. What do you think T5 and T6 are docc?

ciao 

"Allettante?"

I can't really make any sense of the T5/T6. Where did you find this? In a published factory Parts Catalog? I ask because the Harper's breakdown is propriety to them and not factory literature.