Triple clamp musings.

[Lucky Phil]

8 minutes ago, docc said:

"Allettante?"

I can't really make any sense of the T5/T6. Where did you find this? In a published factory Parts Catalog? I ask because the Harper's breakdown is propriety to them and not factory literature.

Here docc. This was the link which doesn't work anymore. For V11 Corse-Le mans 03-04. 

http://sparts.aprilia.it/stampatav.asp?w=&ntav=Front wheel&tav=34&ye=-&cou=-&ve...

[docc]

Hmmm, I wonder if there is a "legend" in the beginning of that document that might shed some light . . .

[Lucky Phil]

5 minutes ago, docc said:

Hmmm, I wonder if there is a "legend" in the beginning of that document that might shed some light . . .

No looked previously docc, nothing. Thats why I assumes Tenni but no other Tenni stuff in there. Btw Tenni's also had gold fork caps as well.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:13 AM, docc said:

Hmmm, I wonder if there is a "legend" in the beginning of that document that might shed some light . . .

Pauldaytona supplied the answer to this. The RC, Rosso Corse has 2 types of Ohlins forks fitted a larger and small dia axle type, so T5/6 refers to that plus some other small changes. If you want details about stuff like this Paul is the man to ask.

Ciao 

[Paul Minnaert]

The red frame v11 sport (KR) got some bad reviews in Germany and other places, because not as other old Guzzis, it wasn't so stable.  They were delivered with 170 wide tire on 4,5", what is a to wide tire for the rim.  And that makes the tire shape to pointy.  German tuner Dynotec made a corrected version of the first gen V11 sport, other offset triple clamps were part of it. But in Italy, Aprilia just owned Moto Guzzi, and didn't want the bad publicity so they took drastic measures. 

The second generation(KS) got a wide tire rear, the popular 180/55 on a 5,5"rim. The area between swingarm and gearbox got a extra steel rods to make it stiffer. with extension to the engine crank case. The front engine mount was reinforced. And the steeringhead was extended to have more wheelbase. 

The third generation(KT) kept same geometry but got optical tweaks and the 43mm forks where this subject is about. 

Not all changes occurred at the same time, first mount old stock before making new. It has been always the same.  

 

The Dynotec v11 http://www.dynotec.de/presse/DynotecV11_2000MO.html

 

[paulnaz]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:13 PM, docc said:

Hmmm, I wonder if there is a "legend" in the beginning of that document that might shed some light . . .

 In the Guzzi Fiches I have found  that revisions or specs are given in the last part of the breakdowns.    In reference to T5/T6 it shows Up to Frame KT211300 =T5,

   After frame KT211301 = T6.

   Paul B

[po18guy]

So many compromises were made. Aprilia did well with their improvements, but the bike strikes me as the motorcycle version of a "resto-mod" vintage V8 car, by upgrading to modern suspension, tires, brakes and electronics. The final version works quite well, but the design, for all of its lovability, was shall we say, very mature.

It is difficult to explain, but I think that Aprilia's thinking (technologically) was looking down on Guzzi hoping to raise it while Piaggio's is looking from below and not exactly certain of what to do. Suffice it to say there will never be another V11. 

[footgoose]

Great to see you here again PaulM. and happy you are well.

Are there any more details on the      "other offset triple clamps were part of it"  as in - were there two different triples for the early red frames?

[docc]

2 hours ago, paulnaz said:

 In the Guzzi Fiches I have found  that revisions or specs are given in the last part of the breakdowns.    In reference to T5/T6 it shows Up to Frame KT211300 =T5,

   After frame KT211301 = T6.

   Paul B

 

1 hour ago, footgoose said:

Great to see you here again PaulM. and happy you are well.

Are there any more details on the      "other offset triple clamps were part of it"  as in - were there two different triples for the early red frames?

The early 1999-2001 RedFrame/Rosso Mandello Parts Catalog does show two different sets of triple clamps.

"Up to frame KR113031 (T3)" an "From frame KR 113032 (T4)"

(The Rosso Mandello were all in the later frame range and their part numbers differ for their black coloration.)

I am certainly vague on the "T3/T4" designation and makes me wonder about "T1/T2" . . .

[Paul Minnaert]

No I have always thought the v11 have 40mm offset. But it can be that they put NOS 1100sport I clamps in the first 2000. In the manuals I know they are 40mm. 

[docc]

1 hour ago, Paul Minnaert said:

No I have always thought the v11 have 40mm offset. But it can be that they put NOS 1100sport I clamps in the first 2000. In the manuals I know they are 40mm. 

This appears to be true, that the earliest V11 Sport built through January or February of 2000 had the 1100 Sport-i clamps.

Was that offset different than the rest of the 2000-2001 Sport?

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, docc said:

This appears to be true, that the earliest V11 Sport built through January or February of 2000 had the 1100 Sport-i clamps.

Was that offset different than the rest of the 2000-2001 Sport?

Sport 1100's had 45mm offset triple clamps on a 26deg head angle from what I can see. The V11 Sport has a 25 deg head angle and 40mm offset clamps. If you had 45mm offset triples on a 25 deg frame it would be intrinsically less stable compared to the 45X26 due to the greatly reduced trail not only from the steeper head angle but also the extra offset. If Guzzi originally fitted Sport 1100ie triple clamps at 45mm off set on the 25 deg V11 frame maybe they were a little too twitchy so they went for 40mm offset forks to increase the trail and get some stability back on the later bikes.  

Ciao

[docc]

43 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Sport 1100's had 45mm offset triple clamps on a 26deg head angle from what I can see. The V11 Sport has a 25 deg head angle and 40mm offset clamps. If you had 45mm offset triples on a 25 deg frame it would be intrinsically less stable compared to the 45X26 due to the greatly reduced trail not only from the steeper head angle but also the extra offset. If Guzzi originally fitted Sport 1100ie triple clamps at 45mm off set on the 25 deg V11 frame maybe they were a little too twitchy so they went for 40mm offset forks to increase the trail and get some stability back on the later bikes.  

Ciao

This gets us closer to the true explanation of what changed between the 1100 Sport-i and the eventual V11 Sport. It may not, actually, be about a change in a "half degree" of rake milled into the triples, but the transition from the 26º->25º change in frame rake while retaining the 45mm offset triples from the earlier gen 1100 Sport before introducing the 40mm offset triples for the 25º rake of the V11 SpineFrame, especially in the Short("Red") Frame version.

I have found "offset" very difficult to measure with the forks mounted to the bike . . .  I tried.

[Lucky Phil]

13 minutes ago, docc said:

This gets us closer to the true explanation of what changed between the 1100 Sport-i and the eventual V11 Sport. It may not, actually, be about a change in a "half degree" of rake milled into the triples, but the transition from the 26º->25º change in frame rake while retaining the 45mm offset triples from the earlier gen 1100 Sport before introducing the 40mm offset triples for the 25º rake of the V11 SpineFrame, especially in the Short("Red") Frame version.

I have found "offset" very difficult to measure with the forks mounted to the bike . . .  I tried.

Can confirm the V11's have 40mm offset docc. If you look at an image of an 1100ie Sport the triples look identical but do in fact measure 45mm offset.

Ciao

[docc]

Seriously, this tuition so informs the reports and concerns about the earliest V11 Sports showing bad handling behavior. Was it a "1/2º change in the cant" of the triples?

That has long been disputed as unlikely.

Was it the holdover of 45mm offset triples that had been used on 26º 1100 Sport spine frames, then did not work well on the 25º V11 ShortFrames that benefited from a 40mm offset?

Would the change from a 26º frame with 45mm offset to a 25º frame with that same 45mm offset = that "1/2 degree" that has been of so much concern?