V11 bevelbox, (Again!)

[pete roper]

Whether it's a *good* thing or a *bad* thing only time will tell. Looking at it from my point of view as a mechanic it is a bit more tiresome as it is harder to get apart and reassemble and requires a whole load of new shims to set up right.

 

The peculiar pinion bearing seems to be a typical Guzi solution to a simple problem, but you get that.

 

I'm still waiting for some kind of feedback from an engineer about whether a less coarse helical cut on the gears will make for mesh being less critical but a longer, deeper tooth wold seem to indicate that to me.

 

As it stands, as a mechanic, it looks like a happy thing, if one that is a bit more difficult to work on, But like most things if you have the correct tools and/or a bit of imagination it isn't rocket science. We leave that up to the real idiots.

 

Pete

[Paul Minnaert]

Thanks for doing the work on this Pete, You gave me hope that I might adjust the bearing without disasembling the box. I have to make a tool like you did.

On the other side waits the next chalenge, the outgoing axle from the gearbox has axial play:-(

[pete roper]

Axial play on the spindle? Well that would have to be related to either the needle roller in the main case, which as I saw it was stupidly designed with an drilling in it to allow the grease out and dirt and water in! or the *inboard* bearing which is a 2RS type that sits, (Searches memory!!!!) in the centre of the crownwheel carrier just inboard of the splines.

 

The needle roller is easy to check as it just requires the washer outboard of it to be removed, then you can pluck out the needle race from inside the needles and examine the whole sorry lot. The 2RS bearing will require the removal of the crownewheel carrier for decent inspection but as I said this is a breeze with the new box as the carrier is sealed with an O-ring, (No hard to reove gaskets any more!) and can be easily pried off witha pair of screwdrivers, It takes all of about five minutes to undo the eight bolts and pry it off after which the bearing can be easily turned and checked for wear because the spacer between it and the back of the box will no longer be pressing against it.

 

While the poxy needle roller will probably require a blind bearing puller to remove the 2RS bearing is a simple push fit and should be easy to press out and in. It also looks like a bog-ordinary standard size bearing, although I didn't check it's numbers. Chances are a new one will cost pennies from a bearing factor. The Needle roller, because it is *sealed* at each end is probably a different matter.

 

The thing is Paul there is NOTHING in there to be scared of. The only thing that might frghten you off is if you don't feel confient about actually shimming the mesh between the crownwheel and pinion. But since, if the gears are OK, you don't have to touch the shims it is a really simple, *Take apart, put back together* number. The most troublesome thing was getting the pinion carrier bearing thingy back in the box, to examine play in the wheel spindle bearings you don't have to touch the pinion at all! Although if yours id a bit floppy making a tool and tightening the castelated collar will probably improve things a lot.

 

People are scared of bevelboxes. I think this is a hangover from the days when everyone had a Haynes manual for their old Tontis and it said that doing *anything* to the bevelbox would result in the sky falling, plagues of frogs and your underpants would burst into flames. Absolute crap of course, but the fear still remains. Attack it with confidence mate! It isn't hard and the problem will be obvious. The box only has 44 pieces, (I just counted them in the book! ) and lots of them are bolts, washers, o-rings, seals and parts of the breather system!!!! There are only about 12 *important* bits!!!!! How hard can it be?????

 

Pete

[pete roper]

Whoops! Scrub that. I just realized you said *Gearbox* .

 

As I said, I haven't had a chance to get in one of these yet but talking to Mario yesterday he says they come apart really easily, although you *do* need the peg spanners for the horrid nuts, (I've ordered a set.) and getting the cush drive out of the centre plate can be a bit of a pig. Looking at the pic of the *Special Tool* in the book though I reckon you can do it with a press and a bit of cut pipe just like the earlier ones. It's just you'll have the plate underneath the tool till you get the collets out. I haven't looked real close at the book yet though so do't take that as Gospel.

 

pete

[docc]

How long can it be before some needy spine frame lands in Pete's hands? You know you want it! There's one out there just waiting for your loving touch.

 

KB will tell you, you can keep the Tonti but some Scura or other Siren of a Guzzi calls you on!

[pete roper]

Alas, no. Don't get me wrong, I love the spineys and really think the V11 is a fun bike. I just don't need one myself. I love my older bikes, thassall.

 

I'm more than happy to keep working on and learning about the new ones. As you may of noticed I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about Perhaps it's because I'm a mad, one eyed troglodyte. Perhaps also it is because I really like their engineering, even though they do get it wrong from time to time and the fact that they are a company with an enormaous and illustrious history. That *is* important to me, as is the fact that even with FI they are still essentially maintainable by the home mechanic with a few Craftsman screwdrivers and wonky spanners, OK and a '@#$$#! Smith' multimeter nowadays too .

 

Even if I won the Lotto I think it highly unlikely I'd buy any *new* motorbike. Now, a 125 or 175 Mondial from the '50's, or a complete collection of early flat singles? Now yer talkin' But my *old* ones do everything I need, reliably and without fuss. I just don't need a new one.

 

Pete

[Paul Minnaert]

So today I made my reardrive bearing nut thingy. The restof the work will follow soon.

[neville briggs]

Pete, that little story was foul.

 

Neville

MGCV

[Paul Minnaert]

So today I took the reardrive on the bench. No way that the nut would come loose with my tool. It was so tight. Then I took the paint dstripper and heated the house , that was better. Now the nut came off. I first tried the easy way, by tightening the nut strong. But the play still was there. So that was no solution. I called TLM, to hear their experiences. They told me that the small nose bearing mostly is the first to suspect if you have this play. I decided to take the hood off. That's easy. After looking again at Pete's pics I found that my nose needle bearing has an extra thing to keep it on it's place. So there is a difference between early and later v11 rear drives. Mine is from a le mans 2001. If I move the pinion I see there is play in the nose bearing too, so that one has to go too. Now find a way to get the bearing, or leave it to tlm.

[Paul Minnaert]

The rest of the story:

The big bearing is from INA, so I called the importer from INA, is not sold other than to Guzzi. I went to TLM today. Herman heated the housing with a torch, then the big bearing came out. The small top needle bearing was easy to get out. The problem lies not in the big bearing, but the smalll neede bearing, see attached picture from what should have been a nice shiny surface. Almost half a mm from the outside is gone. Herman told me that that happens more to the v11 reardrive. So he took a new needle bearing, put it in. And than again heating the house was needed to get the big bearing in. The old one, there was nothing wrong with that. So end good all good. The big bearing costs 240 euro, but I didn't need it.

[pete roper]

That was the inner race off the nose needle roller

 

Interesting that they seem to of deemed it necessary to add some sort of retainer for the outer race.

 

The inner race on the one I had apart was fine, all I noticed was that the needles were loose in their cage. Yes, there was some radial movement but this is almost always going to be the case with needle rollers and i suspected it would of been diminished with heat. Now? I dunno. It's one of those bloody things that only time will tell I suppose.

 

Thanks Paul.

 

Pete

[rossoandy]

Brilliant thread this,anyone with bevel box issues will find the answers in this and my own later thread.

The small needle roler bearing on the pinion does seem to be the Achiles Heel of this final drive. Its also the hardest one to change! Removal of the old worn out one is not easy.

Mines all back together safely but yet to be tested...confident it will be ok though.

[Paul Minnaert]

don't forget to put oil in after repair, like I did

[rossoandy]

don't forget to put oil in after repair, like I did

lol, good point paul,I've left filler bung out to remind me to fill when it goes back on bike. I just stripping rear end off bike cause I need to repalce a weeping gearbox output seal and found driveshaft doesnt fit through hole in swingarm! So looks like gotta remove pork chops ect to get at seal...bah

[Paul Minnaert]

just get the swingarm out, should be enough