V11 greenie in trouble

[Rolf Halvorsen]

On 2/9/2022 at 2:53 AM, Lucky Phil said:

This theory's been mentioned before and I'm not convinced this is the issue. I believe it's a micro crack initiated when the casting cools and is due to the sharp edge at this point and the large cross sectional change which causes a differential cooling rate. The crack then propagates over the miles and heating/cooling cycles. Yours is way worse than mine and well beyond any JBweld temporary solution. You may as well get it properly repaired because the chances of buying a second hand one that already has a latent crack is high. Part of owning an old classic like a V11. You need to do some "engineering" eventually and more often than not on a few different areas.

To effectively repair this you need to chase out the crack with a die grinder and get it welded by someone that knows what they are doing. The idea is to heat the case to around 150 C before the welding starts and in your case half way through the weld repair stop and peen the weld to stress relieve the area and then finish it off and peen the finishing weld. It's not a complex scenario to someone that knows what they are doing.

My gearbox mount showed no signs of any cracking, I just checked it because I'm a physco and knew of the issue. Seems it was a good decision. My original gearbox needs the same done to it as well.

Ciao   

What is the different between my theory about the casting prosess that may have been changed -  and what you wrote?

[gstallons]

1 hour ago, Rolf Halvorsen said:

My 2005 Coppa Italia has no extra gearbox support. 

The pictures from Tom shown the right side of the gearbox house. I have rebuilt 5 such gearboxes - and all had leakage on the left side.

The red frames will use the bracket . the bracket will NOT fit the black frame bikes . I KNOW .

[docc]

On 2/12/2022 at 3:46 PM, gstallons said:

The red frames will use the bracket . the bracket will NOT fit the black frame bikes . I KNOW .

One of the confusions is that the later, black LongFrame, V11 have "extra gearbox support" consisting of tubes from the lower rear subrame to the lower rear of the engine case.  Short Frames (RedFrame + Rosso Mandello/black frame) do not have the boss on the lower rear engine case to accept the later braced subframe, while later V11 do not have the mounting bracket beneath the spine for the center mounting plate vestigial from the 1990's Sport 1100.

[LowRyter]

1 hour ago, gstallons said:

The red frames will use the bracket . the bracket will NOT fit the black frame bikes . I KNOW .

How about a bracket for a bracket?  I saw the issue with the gentleman that has a Red Frame with no bracket.  Bend stock 90 degrees, bolt the horizontal side to the frame and the vertical side to the bracket.   Might be dicey drilling some threaded holes through the frame.  

You guy are smarter than me.  It might work.  It should be simpler than welding a bracket for the bracket- I'd assume you'd have to disassemble everything for that.

[Scud]

38 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

  Might be dicey drilling some threaded holes through the frame.  

Might also get drill shavings in your engine oil since the oil breather goes through the frame.

[deadpen69]

I would think any decent metal fab guy could make quick work of the bracket. Especially if he had the bell housing bracket to work to. I wouldn't want to be drilling holes in the spine. This is the best look I could get at the 4 bolt holes. This is from the left side facing forward

[docc]

52 minutes ago, deadpen69 said:

I would think any decent metal fab guy could make quick work of the bracket. Especially if he had the bell housing bracket to work to. I wouldn't want to be drilling holes in the spine. This is the best look I could get at the 4 bolt holes. This is from the left side facing forward

Great image! Yep, that "frame plate" will bolt right up on your V11 !

[Lucky Phil]

8 hours ago, Rolf Halvorsen said:

My 2005 Coppa Italia has no extra gearbox support. 

The pictures from Tom shown the right side of the gearbox house. I have rebuilt 5 such gearboxes - and all had leakage on the left side.

If your 2005 Coppa Italia has no additional gearbox support from the pork chops to the engine cases then I'd suggest it's not a genuine Coppa Italia.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

8 hours ago, Rolf Halvorsen said:

What is the different between my theory about the casting prosess that may have been changed -  and what you wrote?

My "belief" was put out there as an engineering opinion for others to consider and believe or not believe based on actual hard physical evidence from a repair. It's not the same as "having a stab" based on no measurements or physical evidence or even verified information from a reliable source. By all means give us your thoughts on materials/housing designs/availability from outside suppliers but it needs to be more than "a thought I had at the time" you need to back it with some evidence, measurements, information from a supplier, what you found from a repair etc, otherwise it's just guesswork and suspect information that muddies the waters.

So currently we are chasing down the "triple tree stagger" theory and postulating various scenarios but the outcome will be based on measurements I will eventually take when I pull my bike apart. Why are we in this situation? Because someone years ago "threw out there" a theory without physical evidence of a change. Extricated a "truth" based on hearsay and part number variations. I've never seen or heard of any differences in any way shape or form for gearbox housings from anyone except you. So far you have put out there, different materials, remanufactured housings, and design changes. All I'm saying is, you may be absolutely correct but where is your information coming from or is it just a "theory" you have with nothing to validate it. No measurements, no skilled welder thats weld repaired both old and new housings and can tell the difference in material etc. This is not a point scoring argument but an effort to sort fact from assumption.          

 

Ciao  

[Lucky Phil]

4 hours ago, Scud said:

Might also get drill shavings in your engine oil since the oil breather goes through the frame.

They'll just end up in the bottom of the sump and picked up by the mag plug.

Ciao

[Rolf Halvorsen]

12 hours ago, docc said:

One of the confusions is that the later, black LongFrame, V11 have "extra gearbox support" consisting of tubes from the lower rear subrame to the lower rear of the engine case.  Short Frames (RedFarme + Rosso Mandello/black frame) do not have the boss on the engine case to accept the later braced subframe, while later V11 do not have the mounting bracket beneath the spine for the center mounting plate vestigial from the 1990's Sport 1100.

These arm to the engine case will help stabilize the engine from rotating - and thereby reducing the load on the top gearbox fixing point (where the cracking problem has been).

[LowRyter]

5 hours ago, Rolf Halvorsen said:

These arm to the engine case will help stabilize the engine from rotating - and thereby reducing the load on the top gearbox fixing point (where the cracking problem has been).

yeah, I think might right wrist might've contributed the problem.  

[Scud]

8 hours ago, Rolf Halvorsen said:

These arm to the engine case will help stabilize the engine from rotating - and thereby reducing the load on the top gearbox fixing point (where the cracking problem has been).

Just FYI - The black (long) framed bikes' subframes have three arms that the red (short) frame bikes do not. Two down low and going forward to the engine block, and the third, which is probably more important to prevent rotating. The third support goes diagonally from lower right of transmission up to the actual frame where the side plate mounts. 

 

And back the original problem... it looks like adding the small brace to this particular greenie is going to be difficult due to the missing frame tab.

However, I've wondered if you could hack the front arms off a black subframe and modify it to fit with only the supplemental diagonal brace. The circle flange on the black frame has a recess for the cross-brace, so this part wouldn't fit as-is on a red frame. I think you would need to have the upper left mounting tabs machined down to account for lack of the recess in the red frame, then maybe add material to be sure the mounting point is strong enough.

Alternatively, I wonder if a cross brace could be welded to a red sub-frame. Then you'd just need longer bolts for the frame plates. If you're gonna weld, it makes sense to put in a stronger brace on a part that can be easily removed and reinstalled.

 

[Guzzijens]

21 hours ago, docc said:

One of the confusions is that the later, black LongFrame, V11 have "extra gearbox support" consisting of tubes from the lower rear subrame to the lower rear of the engine case.  Short Frames (RedFarme + Rosso Mandello/black frame) do not have the boss on the engine case to accept the later braced subframe, while later V11 do not have the mounting bracket beneath the spine for the center mounting plate vestigial from the 1990's Sport 1100.

I am not shure this is totally correct, my Rosso Mandello have these bosses on the engine, and I bought and installed a second hand rear subframe on my bike. Have to drill new holes and making threades of course... Maybe the Rosso Mandello series are different from the red frame series?

Jens Martin

 

 

[docc]

14 minutes ago, Guzzijens said:

I am not shure this is totally correct, my Rosso Mandello have these bosses on the engine, and I bought and installed a second hand rear subframe on my bike. Have to drill new holes and making threades of course... Maybe the Rosso Mandello series are different from the red frame series?

Jens Martin

 

 

Excellent input! Thanks, Jens!

Here, I was thinking the Rosso Mandello was the worst case scenario with to spine tab for the upper mount and no case bosses for the lower bracing. Good to know that the bosses are there!

I wonder if other 2001 Sports might have these case bosses as well ?

[edit: @Guzzijens's lower bracing]: