Pecco Moto GP

[PJPR01]

So at the end of the day, it IS Michelin who is deciding which tires a team can use?  I simply don't get that.  If Michelin decides to bring a Soft and a Hard as the only two options, and a team would rather use a Medium, under these new rules, they can't use a Medium, right?

How does that make any sense...why should the tire manufacturer get to dictate what tires a team wants to run?

[LowRyter]

4 minutes ago, PJPR01 said:

So at the end of the day, it IS Michelin who is deciding which tires a team can use?  I simply don't get that.  If Michelin decides to bring a Soft and a Hard as the only two options, and a team would rather use a Medium, under these new rules, they can't use a Medium, right?

How does that make any sense...why should the tire manufacturer get to dictate what tires a team wants to run?

Michelin decides which selection of tires to bring to the track.  Those tires are available to all teams and riders.

[PJPR01]

3 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

Michelin decides which selection of tires to bring to the track.  Those tires are available to all teams and riders.

Right...but they are apparently only bring 2 of the 3 choices, not all 3 if I understood correctly.  So they may bring Soft and Hard or Soft and Medium, but that limits the combinations then the teams can choose from.  Unless I"m not understanding this correctly, Michelin is basically limiting the choices any team can have to 2 out of 3, instead of having all 3 available.

Why does that make sense?

And what about rain tires just in case...that should be an option too, right?

[LowRyter]

36 minutes ago, PJPR01 said:

Right...but they are apparently only bring 2 of the 3 choices, not all 3 if I understood correctly.  So they may bring Soft and Hard or Soft and Medium, but that limits the combinations then the teams can choose from.  Unless I"m not understanding this correctly, Michelin is basically limiting the choices any team can have to 2 out of 3, instead of having all 3 available.

Why does that make sense?

And what about rain tires just in case...that should be an option too, right?

They're not going to make custom tires for each team.  They'll bring a selection that they consider that works best and safest for the entire field.   Sometimes they miss and find a particular tire doesn't work.  It's the same in every race series and tire manufacturer.   

Some of the variables are the speed and condition of the track, whether clockwise or counter, etc., etc.    Each tire typically has three compounds, left, right and center, all depending on the variables.

[Lucky Phil]

10 hours ago, LowRyter said:

They're not going to make custom tires for each team.  They'll bring a selection that they consider that works best and safest for the entire field.   Sometimes they miss and find a particular tire doesn't work.  It's the same in every race series and tire manufacturer.   

Some of the variables are the speed and condition of the track, whether clockwise or counter, etc., etc.    Each tire typically has three compounds, left, right and center, all depending on the variables.

I got news for you, they have in the past and they did it all the time. In fact Michelin used to make custom tyres "OVERNIGHT" for the factory guys and fly them in for race day. So during Friday practice Michelin would email the factory and get them working on a custom tyre for each of the top guys whatever they thought they needed to use in qualifying and the race. Stoner mentioned this in his autobiography that "occasionally" in his first year in a satellite team if he was doing well in practice some of these tyres would be "bestowed" upon him and the "lesser lights" for qualifying. It's the reason he would often qualify well or even on pole then everyone would ask why he wasn't up front in the actual race. Reason? because even after getting pole he'd be back on the std "junk" tyres for the race. Naturally he found it quite annoying that Rossi et al would know that although he qualified well they wouldn't need to worry about him or the other satellite riders that qualified well because the top guys would prevent them having the best tyres for the race.

The spec tyre changed all that for the good but now it's run it's course and I don't see any reason in the preseason testing teams couldn't choose from a number of different constructions offered to them that they thought worked best for them and their bike and rider and Michelin build those tyres for them for the season. The actual tyre construction variations aren't a big deal to build. Sure it would be more costly but all they need to do is cut down on the F1 style bullshit creeping into MotoGP and they'd find the money.  

Phil

[LowRyter]

Phil, I remember when Rossi got "special tires".  My statement was generally how tire situation works now.

[GuzziMoto]

Currently Michelin decides on three different tire compounds and constructions and brings those three to each race. The teams have no say in which tires are brought. It is three fronts and three rears, plus any wet weather tires. The three tire deal is just for slicks.

The plan next year is for Michelin to only bring two different tires, two fronts and two rears, to races next year. Again, the teams will have no say in which tires Michelin brings. If a teams bikes don't work with either of those tires, they are SOL.

It would be nice if teams had a say in which tires they get to use at a given track. It would be even nicer if Michelin would work with teams to tailor the tires to the bikes. It would be great if Michelin would stop changing tire specs and throwing away all the R & D time and money teams spent to get their bikes to work with the "spec" tires.

I get the inequality that was inherent in the old system before there was a spec tire. But the current system is full of its own inequality. If you wanted to stop special tires being made only for certain riders, simply make a rule that requires tire manufacturers to bring enough tires for all their riders in order for any of their riders to be able to use a given tire. And don't let the tire manufacturers distribute the tires they bring to the riders. Have them submit the various tires they brought to the FIM, and have the FIM hand the tires out. If there aren't enough tires of a given compound / construction and someone wants one but there are no more, remove that specific tire from use. That will still allow competition between tire manufacturers. And it will still allow motorcycle manufacturers to design MotoGP bikes that aren't the same as everyone else's, because tires can be built to suit different bikes. But it will limit how far a tire manufacturer would go to build special tires as they would have to build enough special tires for all their riders.

Instead, we have a system where Michelin decides which bikes are faster and which bikes are slower by deciding which tires everyone has to use. And in some cases they change those tires in the middle of a season, or test certain tires at a given track and then show up with different tires. It does not help the racing to do it this way. And it does not reduce costs for anyone other than Michelin. Because of tire "adjustments" most teams actually end up spending more money, not less.

Having raced on different brand tires, and having received some of the "good" tires from at least one brand. I understand just how much of a difference tires will make in how fast a given racer on a given bike can go. It can be a massive difference, and in a field where the grid is around one second between front and back that can make all the difference.

[GuzziMoto]

I should also add, Michelin seem to have a big problem with consistency with their tires as well. The latest to suffer was Miller on the Duc.

https://the-race.com/motogp/millers-tirade-against-michelin-and-why-michelin-disagrees/

“Two decent tyres all weekend, and I tried my maximum in the race but to be honest I had nothing on the right-hand side from the beginning until the end, and especially at the end."

“I was [wheel]spinning in a straight line. I don’t know what happened with the hard tyre but it didn’t function."

[Pressureangle]

Back in 1987 I saw David Sadowski, a sponsored Dunlop rider, go to the Dunlop trailer and pull out Doug Polen's used practice tires to mount instead of brand new free ones, for the money race. That was everything I needed to know about Dunlop and racing tires. They cheat. I assume everyone cheats. I hate cheating.

[KINDOY2]

Are Ride height devices here to stay in Moto GP?   Good or Bad? Opinion ?

 

[GuzziMoto]

On 6/10/2022 at 4:41 PM, KINDOY2 said:

Are Ride height devices here to stay in Moto GP?   Good or Bad? Opinion ?

 

As I recall, the front ride height devices are banned starting next year. The rear ride height devices are here for at least a little while longer.

I am not really a fan of them, but I am more against the aero they are using then ride height devices. But I would rather we had less technology in MotoGP rather than more.

[Lucky Phil]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:58 PM, LowRyter said:

Phil, I remember when Rossi got "special tires".  My statement was generally how tire situation works now.

My comment was on the fact that control tyres have run their race and it's not unrealistic to provide a range of different construction tyres to teams that they feel suit their bike and rider at the start of the season instead of manufacturers having to reconstruct frames and swingarms after their next years bike has been designed and constructed to suit the new tyres Michelin decide on at end of season testing. Pointing out that Michelin in the past had the capacity to produce bespoke tyres overnight.

Ciao 

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

As I recall, the front ride height devices are banned starting next year. The rear ride height devices are here for at least a little while longer.

I am not really a fan of them, but I am more against the aero they are using then ride height devices. But I would rather we had less technology in MotoGP rather than more.

Yes this  is true. Ride height and aero are ruining MotoGP as is electronics. However electronics have a practical benefit for road bikes and is therefor of value in a product sense for the manufacturers to incorporate into production bikes. Aero and dynamic ride height devices have zero benefit to road riders and even for track day riders. All they do is create overheating issues for front tyres to cope with and make overtaking difficult. 

MotoGP is disappearing up it's own fundamental just like F1. Big moneys involved and it's all about "the show" now so unpredictability is the aim. Most sports are the same. They start out for the benefit of the competitor and interested people come to watch and eventually it becomes a money making enterprise geared around the spectator to generate the capital. 

Phil 

[docc]

 

1 minute ago, Lucky Phil said:

MotoGP is disappearing up it's own fundamental just like F1. Big moneys involved and it's all about "the show" now so unpredictability is the aim. Most sports are the same. They start out for the benefit of the competitor and interested people come to watch and eventually it becomes a money making enterprise geared around the spectator to generate the capital. 

Phil 

I am just on the sidelines here, reading and learning some. Just an observation that the spec tire and unpredictable changes without any knowledge or input from the teams looks like shuffling the deck before a hand of high stake cards . . .

[Lucky Phil]

33 minutes ago, docc said:

 

I am just on the sidelines here, reading and learning some. Just an observation that the spec tire and unpredictable changes without any knowledge or input from the teams looks like shuffling the deck before a hand of high stake cards . . .

The tyres are a joke these days docc. So teams get their allocation of tyres and have them on the warmers during the weekend and obviously not all get used so they go back to Michelin for later use. All tyres are serialised and tracked and a log kept of how many hours and cycles they have been on the warmers. It's now at the point where a tyre thats been on a tyre warmer at a previous round is in effect a "second rate tyre" as in it's performance is degraded compared to a fresh new tyre straight off the warmers so those pre warm cycled tyre need to be used for non critical practice such as the first session when a riders getting up to speed at a new GP. Miller got caught out in practice 3 a GP ago when his bike broke down out on the track due to a technical issue and he needed to leg it back to the pits and go out on his spare which had new but warm cycled tyres on it. So when a good time is needed in practice 3 he's out on "degraded tyres" that won't cut a fast time. Then we have the choice of race tyre dependent on a variation of track temp of less than 10 deg C ( not air temp but track temp) tyres overheating because a rider is riding and battling in a "pack", overheating due to ride height devices, overheating due to aero. Bikes fitted with on board tyre temp and pressure monitoring that warn the rider when his front tyre temps and pressures are too high. Add to that rides generally have 3 front and rear tyre choices and it's all about tyres these days. When it gets to this level of complexity over tyres then it's gone off the rails. 

Phil