Ghezzi-Brian ECU for the V11 - anyone knows "Centraline Rapid-Bike"?

[Kane]

Thank you, Phil.

[Weegie]

Just to add that looks like an EVO unit.

I've got one on the BMW R9T, it's more capable than a Power Commander in some respects what it does is adjust closed loop fuelling on more modern bikes and isn't required on an open loop system. The EVO only looks at the fuel map, if you wanted to adjust ignition too you'd need to get the RACE module.

For the R9T it comes complete with its own loom and is (pretty much) plug and play

The R9Ts are tuned quite lean (mine is a Euro 4) the stock narrow band lambdas output go to the EVO which alters the signal to the A/F ratio you set and it then sends a dummy signal to the ECU essentially fooling it to alter the injector timing to achieve the A/F you select. Quite a few use it on the R9Ts especially if they install different exhausts or air filters.

With the narrow band lambdas it tunes on the fly but narrow band lambdas are essentially a 3 way switch they only tell you if the A/F is optimal, rich or lean. The EVO takes a few hundred miles for the module to optimize the tune to the target A/F (13.2 out the box, as I recall). You can also get another add on to the EVO and install a wide band lambda which will tune (more or less) in real time.

EVO comes with software and you can adjust/tweak the map, or the target A/F and a few other odds and ends. I like it, it's quite a nice system for closed loop tuning on a bike where it can be difficult to find places to remap the ECU.

As for V11s it's not required for open loop systems

[p6x]

13 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

My suggestion to you is to spend some time learning about the system on the V11 and Guzzidiag, there's plenty of detailed information out there going back about 12 years since Guzzidiag was invented. You will then realise that this add on box is a waste of money because Guzzidiag in conjunction with Tunerpro will do everything it does without being an add on and for free. But as a start here's some information. You totally misunderstand how the 15M system works on the Guzzi. Basically it has base fuel and ignition maps ( as well as start enrichment and a few others) as all systems do and it adds trim values to the base maps dependent on atmospheric and operating conditions. So engine temp, Baro pressure, inlet air temp etc. It also takes commands from your right wrist via the TPS and the known engine rpm looks at what the base map is saying and all the environmental trims and injects the appropriate amount of fuel and applies the appropriate amount of ignition advance. As environmental conditions change such as Inlet air temp, engine temp, baro pressure so does the amount of fuel injected and the amount of ignition advance. It's all done in "real time". It's a very capable system and doesn't need any do dads and hang ons to do it job. It can be easily tuned via Guzzidiag and Tunerpro even for people with very basic computer skills like me.

Ciao  

I have gone through a lot of material about Guzzidiag and TunerPro;

What I seem to be missing, as far as I understand, is which map should I load into my ECU to replace the current one, which I assume is the stock one.

I have read Paul Minnaert's "V11 ECU Diagnostic and Reprogramming". I like to think I learned what GuzziDiag does, and TunerPro which is used to download, edit, upload injection maps. Correct?

I have read Meinolf's V11 bin, and some other threads with alternate maps to install in your ECU.

Can you explain to me what difference exists between one map with the other? how do you determine the one that works best for your application? we know that our V11 have those injection issues at low rpm under some atmospheric conditions.

What I liked about the contentious add-on "black box", is that it works with whatever map is in the ECU.

I am not deterred by the means to install a corrected map into my ECU. I am simply not familiar with the way to determine which one is the best for my application to get rid of the injection imperfection at low rpm's.

As I worked with computer before they became accessible to the public, I was also privy of auto-adaptative algorithms, used to optimize routine tasks in certain tools we were using. This is why I feel that I understand better the ECU adjuster than the proposed, improved, optimized injection maps elaborated by many here, on this forum. Maybe also because everything is done from remote. Some of the explanations are of the "follow" type. Like you, I like to understand what I am doing. I get that for the sake of simplicity, some of the instructions remain "step by step". It is fine.

So, bottom line; which bin do you recommend?

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, p6x said:

I have gone through a lot of material about Guzzidiag and TunerPro;

What I seem to be missing, as far as I understand, is which map should I load into my ECU to replace the current one, which I assume is the stock one.

I have read Paul Minnaert's "V11 ECU Diagnostic and Reprogramming". I like to think I learned what GuzziDiag does, and TunerPro which is used to download, edit, upload injection maps. Correct?

I have read Meinolf's V11 bin, and some other threads with alternate maps to install in your ECU.

Can you explain to me what difference exists between one map with the other? how do you determine the one that works best for your application? we know that our V11 have those injection issues at low rpm under some atmospheric conditions.

What I liked about the contentious add-on "black box", is that it works with whatever map is in the ECU.

I am not deterred by the means to install a corrected map into my ECU. I am simply not familiar with the way to determine which one is the best for my application to get rid of the injection imperfection at low rpm's.

As I worked with computer before they became accessible to the public, I was also privy of auto-adaptative algorithms, used to optimize routine tasks in certain tools we were using. This is why I feel that I understand better the ECU adjuster than the proposed, improved, optimized injection maps elaborated by many here, on this forum. Maybe also because everything is done from remote. Some of the explanations are of the "follow" type. Like you, I like to understand what I am doing. I get that for the sake of simplicity, some of the instructions remain "step by step". It is fine.

So, bottom line; which bin do you recommend?

Tunerpro is used to edit .bin files or "the maps" if you like not to download and upload the .bin file. That is done by the Guzzidiag reader and writer programs. So Guzzidiag allows you to view your bikes injection system in real time while it's running and see all the Parameters etc like throttle position and various environmental sensor outputs. It also allows you to adjust the CO setting and on some bikes reset the TPS reference point and turn the LAMBDA on or off.

The reader and writer programs allow you to download the .bin file (or maps) from your ecu and save them on your computer and then the Tunerpro programme allows you view the .bin file in human understandable form and to edit the .bin files to create whatever changes to the file/maps you want and save them to your computer and then use the Guzzidiag writer programme to upload the modified map into your bikes ecu. The .bin file is a computer geek file in Hex and computer language, Tunerpro turns that into something that is layman understandable and simple to edit.

What map do you load? Any map someone emails you or you find on this forum via a .bin file. Simply download the file onto your computer open the reader select the map and with your laptop connected to the bikes ecu simply write the new map. Or take your original map open it in tunerpro and make changes or edit the maps yourself. Save the map on your computer and then load it into your bikes ecu with the writer programme. It's identical to tuning a carburettor just via a laptop. So you think your bike is running badly at a certain point, look at the fuel map at that point ( so throttle angle and rpm) and lets say richen it up 3% in that area. Save the new map file and name it on your laptop and use the writer to load it to the ecu. Take the bike for a ride and see if it's an improvement. Yes then add another 2% and try again. No lean it off again. OR if it runs worse on the initial change then go back 6% from your new map ( 3% leaner than stock map) and see how that goes. Pretty simple and you can't hurt anything with small changes like 3-5%. Then the same for ignition if you like and start enrichment the list goes on. If you have a few maps to look at you can look at them on tunerpro and see where the differences are between the maps and if your bike is not running as well as it should and you have another map thats different in that area then edit the map thats in your bike and use those values from the other map and see what the result is. This is how bikes were tuned when they had carbs. making changes via jets, throttle slides etc then riding them and seeing what the result is. For most people this will be good enough. A bike that starts well, warms up well, idles well, responds to the throttle well, doesn't use too much fuel and is nice to ride. If you want something closer to perfection then you can hire some dyno time and an operator or get into the world of data logging engine lambda.

Ciao       

[docc]

From the Fileshare subforum:

 

[p6x]

@Lucky Phil the reason why I seem to insist in calling the "bin" file a map, is because a "bin" file is an extension as in .bin defining a file format. Not its contents.

Map is what is used in many other languages too. It is a firmware in the IT world, used by the ECU.

Just to clarify my attachment (pun) to call it an ECU map? so I don't try to upload any unrelated ".bin" file;

Epson Fuji Reala 100.bin
Epson Agfa HDC Plus 100.bin
Epson Kodak Tri-X 400 6x6.bin
Epson Kodak Portra 400.bin
Epson Mitsubishi MX-III 200.bin
Epson Ferrania FG 400.bin
Epson Konica Centuria 400.bin
Epson Kodak Supra 100.bin
Epson Kodak Royal Gold 400.bin
Epson Konica VX 100.bin
Epson Fuji Pro 160.bin
Epson Kodak Portra 160 NC 6x6.bin
Epson Fuji Superia 100 6x6.bin
Epson Kodak Plus-X 125.bin
Epson Ilford Delta 400 6x6.bin
Epson Kodak T-Max 400.bin
Epson Fotolabo Club 100.bin
Epson Boots 100.bin
Epson Fuji Nexia A200 APS.bin
Epson Ferrania HP 200 APS.bin
Epson Agfa Optima Prestige 100.bin
Epson Agfa Optima II Prestige 100.bin

 

[ScuRoo]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:12 AM, Lucky Phil said:

Basically it has base fuel and ignition maps ( as well as start enrichment and a few others) as all systems do and it adds trim values to the base maps dependent on atmospheric and operating conditions. So engine temp, Baro pressure, inlet air temp etc. It also takes commands from your right wrist via the TPS and the known engine rpm looks at what the base map is saying and all the environmental trims and injects the appropriate amount of fuel and applies the appropriate amount of ignition advance. As environmental conditions change such as Inlet air temp, engine temp, baro pressure so does the amount of fuel injected and the amount of ignition advance. It's all done in "real time". It's a very capable system and doesn't need any do dads and hang ons to do it job. 

So with regards to the ignition advance timing parameters…

If ignition advance is continuously being trimmed subject to inputs - does the ECU receive any further feedback which in effect ‘checks the accuracy’ of those timing adjustments?

Or is this something the knock sensor alone limits?

For example - it seems the ECU has the ability to retard timing in response to a change in fuel from say 98 to 91 RON & thus avoid the damaging onset of engine knock automatically.

So does this capacity extend to an ability to retard automatically in adapting to being dual plugged?

Understanding the granularity of ECU timing advance adjusting trims is intriguing!

[Weegie]

Knock sensor?

These bikes have a knock sensor?

The R9T I mentioned previously has 2 one on each cylinder, a Piezzo crystal I think, it senses vibration from the cylinder. I had to replace mine, I'd think they're common on Euro 4 onwards bikes with closed loop mapping. IMHO just something else to break, needless complexity only necessary because emission limits are becoming so stringent.

Regarding RapidBike they are very responsive and open to questions, the customer response I recieived was great and fast.

Reckon in theory it might be possible to install one to 15/16M? and use the optional My Tuning Bike module and a wide band lambda to get real time mapping on the fly.

The practicalities elude me though as I don't know how it would communicate with the ECU.

Seems overkill to me, even if it was possible but then again we're all different

[GuzziMoto]

No knock sensor on any V11 I am aware of. So that functionality, retarding timing when running lower octane fuels, isn't possible.

For cars or bikes that support that functionality, they have no idea what the octane of the fuel you just filled it up with. As I understand, it simply starts out with the timing where it was (100%) and pulls timing when it senses knock. It is purely reactionary. After pulling timing it will eventually try to put it back, pulling it again if knock is detected. It wants timing to be at 100%, the most advance it is programmed to use. But it will pull timing when knock is detected. Then it will try to put the timing back.

The piggy-back ECUs used to be state of the art. That was a long time ago. Nowadays it is better to just use the right ECU with the right program. That said, we still have a Power Commander on the wife's V11. It has been there for near two decades. But even I am finally planning on removing it and simply loading the right map into the ECU and setting it up correctly. It ran well enough with the Power Commander, but as mentioned it is another failure point and it can always be better.

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, ScuRoo said:

So with regards to the ignition advance timing parameters…

If ignition advance is continuously being trimmed subject to inputs - does the ECU receive any further feedback which in effect ‘checks the accuracy’ of those timing adjustments?

Or is this something the knock sensor alone limits?

For example - it seems the ECU has the ability to retard timing in response to a change in fuel from say 98 to 91 RON & thus avoid the damaging onset of engine knock automatically.

So does this capacity extend to an ability to retard automatically in adapting to being dual plugged?

Understanding the granularity of ECU timing advance adjusting trims is intriguing!

The V11 ecu does not have these capabilities. No knock sensor and no ability to adjust for different fuels. Thats a few generations on from the V11 15M ecu.

Ciao 

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

No knock sensor on any V11 I am aware of. So that functionality, retarding timing when running lower octane fuels, isn't possible.

For cars or bikes that support that functionality, they have no idea what the octane of the fuel you just filled it up with. As I understand, it simply starts out with the timing where it was (100%) and pulls timing when it senses knock. It is purely reactionary. After pulling timing it will eventually try to put it back, pulling it again if knock is detected. It wants timing to be at 100%, the most advance it is programmed to use. But it will pull timing when knock is detected. Then it will try to put the timing back.

The piggy-back ECUs used to be state of the art. That was a long time ago. Nowadays it is better to just use the right ECU with the right program. That said, we still have a Power Commander on the wife's V11. It has been there for near two decades. But even I am finally planning on removing it and simply loading the right map into the ECU and setting it up correctly. It ran well enough with the Power Commander, but as mentioned it is another failure point and it can always be better.

Some current automotive systems do have octane sensing devices for the ecu. You can even buy stand alone octane measuring devices that indicate via a display in the car what the current octane rating is.

Ciao 

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, p6x said:

@Lucky Phil the reason why I seem to insist in calling the "bin" file a map, is because a "bin" file is an extension as in .bin defining a file format. Not its contents.

Map is what is used in many other languages too. It is a firmware in the IT world, used by the ECU.

Just to clarify my attachment (pun) to call it an ECU map? so I don't try to upload any unrelated ".bin" file;

Epson Fuji Reala 100.bin
Epson Agfa HDC Plus 100.bin
Epson Kodak Tri-X 400 6x6.bin
Epson Kodak Portra 400.bin
Epson Mitsubishi MX-III 200.bin
Epson Ferrania FG 400.bin
Epson Konica Centuria 400.bin
Epson Kodak Supra 100.bin
Epson Kodak Royal Gold 400.bin
Epson Konica VX 100.bin
Epson Fuji Pro 160.bin
Epson Kodak Portra 160 NC 6x6.bin
Epson Fuji Superia 100 6x6.bin
Epson Kodak Plus-X 125.bin
Epson Ilford Delta 400 6x6.bin
Epson Kodak T-Max 400.bin
Epson Fotolabo Club 100.bin
Epson Boots 100.bin
Epson Fuji Nexia A200 APS.bin
Epson Ferrania HP 200 APS.bin
Epson Agfa Optima Prestige 100.bin
Epson Agfa Optima II Prestige 100.bin

 

You seem to be all over it then so you won't have any issues.

Ciao

[p6x]

3 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

You seem to be all over it then so you won't have any issues.

Ciao

I would be the happiest guy in the world if I had. Understanding a file format is easy. I am still not getting why they would make an additional ECU to correct the stock one, instead of making just a drop in replacement.

This is something I can't wrap my head around. If we were talking about a new model, warranty would be an issue.

What is the reason they have an add-on rather than a replacement? is it a commercial decision? the same unit can be used for many different motorcycle, just need to modify the in and out ports?

Anyway, I guess Ghezzi-Bran does not even have the answer.

[Lucky Phil]

5 minutes ago, p6x said:

I would be the happiest guy in the world if I had. Understanding a file format is easy. I am still not getting why they would make an additional ECU to correct the stock one, instead of making just a drop in replacement.

This is something I can't wrap my head around. If we were talking about a new model, warranty would be an issue.

What is the reason they have an add-on rather than a replacement? is it a commercial decision? the same unit can be used for many different motorcycle, just need to modify the in and out ports?

Anyway, I guess Ghezzi-Bran does not even have the answer.

They do make replacement ecu's. My Ducati 1198 has a Microtec ecu, direct drop in replacement for the std ecu. Fully programable, cost...... $1100US.

 

Ciao

[Weegie]

9 hours ago, p6x said:

I am still not getting why they would make an additional ECU to correct the stock one, instead of making just a drop in replacement.

This is something I can't wrap my head around. If we were talking about a new model, warranty would be an issue.

Perhaps I've got my wires crossed, but warranty might be a reason, the main thing I reckon is cost and ease of install, if we are referring to the RapidBike EVO.

For newer models it comes complete with harness and is plug & pray play.

The module covers lots of different manufacturers and models, just like Power Commander.

A completely new ECU is going to be more expensive and then adds the complexity of mapping, or getting the old map into the new ECU.

If you're asking why it's offered as an add on for a V11, then I've no idea.