Rosso Mandello clutch problem

[Guzzijens]

Hello everybody. During the winter I have done some upgrades to my RM, one of them was to try to reduce the ratteling noise at idle from the clutch. I bought a new clutch plate (Miba type), the noise is better, but the problem is that it drags. It seems to me that it require more throw-out distance, possible due to that it is thicker (1mm)? Have somebody experience this? I hope to avoid taking the engine out and put the old plate in...Can a 13 mm master cylinder be a solution?

Jens Martin

 

[GuzziMoto]

35 minutes ago, Guzzijens said:

Hello everybody. During the winter I have done some upgrades to my RM, one of them was to try to reduce the ratteling noise at idle from the clutch. I bought a new clutch plate (Miba type), the noise is better, but the problem is that it drags. It seems to me that it require more throw-out distance, possible due to that it is thicker (1mm)? Have somebody experience this? I hope to avoid taking the engine out and put the old plate in...Can a 13 mm master cylinder be a solution?

Jens Martin

 

Are you sure you don't have air in the clutch system? Air in a hydraulic clutch can cause decreased throw of the pressure plate, causing clutch drag. Because the air compresses.

[Guzzijens]

13 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

Are you sure you don't have air in the clutch system? Air in a hydraulic clutch can cause decreased throw of the pressure plate, causing clutch drag. Because the air compresses.

Yes, I am pretty sure of that, but I know it can be difficult to get the air out. The "feel" of the handle is the same as before, and I also unmount the slave cylinder and blocked it with a vice grip, and the handle was solid (if you understand what I mean..:-)

Jens Martin

[80CX100]

This is above my pay grade, but I have read of similar problems in older guzzis with different thickness of new clutch plates.

Iirc the solution is a longer push rod or inserting a small ball bearing into the clutch throw out rod assembly to increase the overall length.

Could that be your problem and how that plays out in the V11 hydraulic clutch assembly I have no idea.

fwiw

[MartyNZ]

4 hours ago, Guzzijens said:

... but the problem is that it drags. It seems to me that it require more throw-out distance, possible due to that it is thicker (1mm)? 

How bad is the drag? Is the bike unrideable, or just tricky to get going? I wonder if things will get better as the new plate wears a little, and beds into the flywheel.

[Guzzijens]

6 minutes ago, MartyNZ said:

How bad is the drag? Is the bike unrideable, or just tricky to get going? I wonder if things will get better as the new plate wears a little, and beds into the flywheel.

No, it is not too bad, it is rideable,  but difficult to find neutral. As soon as the weather is getting better I will take her on a ride 😀

[MartyNZ]

Some previous talk about this

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20091-no-neutral-after-twin-plate-conversion/#elControls_224256_menu

[Lucky Phil]

On 4/30/2022 at 2:32 AM, Guzzijens said:

Hello everybody. During the winter I have done some upgrades to my RM, one of them was to try to reduce the ratteling noise at idle from the clutch. I bought a new clutch plate (Miba type), the noise is better, but the problem is that it drags. It seems to me that it require more throw-out distance, possible due to that it is thicker (1mm)? Have somebody experience this? I hope to avoid taking the engine out and put the old plate in...Can a 13 mm master cylinder be a solution?

Jens Martin

 

two things, the thicker clutch plate may require a mod like this  https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3117 and a longer pushrod.

Ciao

[GuzziMoto]

From the ""Customers also purchased" section of that page

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4690

A longer pushrod designed for use with the RAM clutch on 5 speed transmissions. I assume there is a similar pushrod available for 6 speed boxes. Or, as mentioned, you may be able to use a single ball bearing to extend the current pushrod setup.

If the clutch is working correctly and has no air in the system, it may be an issue with the pushrod length.

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

From the ""Customers also purchased" section of that page

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4690

A longer pushrod designed for use with the RAM clutch on 5 speed transmissions. I assume there is a similar pushrod available for 6 speed boxes. Or, as mentioned, you may be able to use a single ball bearing to extend the current pushrod setup.

If the clutch is working correctly and has no air in the system, it may be an issue with the pushrod length.

Possibly but the earlier RAM clutch pushrod fitting typically interferes with proper clutch disengagement when used with the later thicker friction plates. I also suspect the reason for the reduced life of the earlier RAM clutch plates was that these units were originally designed for a cable operated system that had greater travel than the hydraulic system and the slipping was caused by the slave bottoming out as the friction plate wore as opposed to high wear of the friction plate itself. The plate still had plenty of material on it. Just my theory. The design of the single plate pivoting fingers as opposed to the straight push coil spring system and the spreading of wear over 2 plates instead of one requires a greater amount of clutch actuation range to accommodate wear.

Ciao

[po18guy]

On 4/29/2022 at 2:25 PM, Guzzijens said:

No, it is not too bad, it is rideable,  but difficult to find neutral. As soon as the weather is getting better I will take her on a ride 😀

I developed this exact problem on my '04 Ballabio last year. It occurred after a particularly high speed burst on the motorway.  In my case, it was indeed air in the system. I bled the slave cylinder but also installed a bleeder banjo bolt on the master cylinder at the high point of the hydraulic system. Made of titanium, it is of excellent quality and not all that costly. A good addition in any event. 

[Guzzijens]

Thanks for your replies. In my case, I am not so shure if a longer pushrod is a solution, because when I adust the clutch lever adjusting screw all the way in (out of its normal position) the clutch relase ok. This is however not a good solution, the clutchlever is too far from the handlebar, and almost zero distance to the clutch piston. I have order a new 13 mm clutchcylinder, a report will come 😀

Jens Martin

[GuzziMoto]

12 minutes ago, Guzzijens said:

Thanks for your replies. In my case, I am not so shure if a longer pushrod is a solution, because when I adust the clutch lever adjusting screw all the way in (out of its normal position) the clutch relase ok. This is however not a good solution, the clutchlever is too far from the handlebar, and almost zero distance to the clutch piston. I have order a new 13 mm clutchcylinder, a report will come 😀

Jens Martin

So, it does work. You just can't have as much free play as you want.

A slightly longer push rod should do very much the same thing, take out the dead travel, as adjusting that.

What if you just upgrade the clutch lever to an adjustable clutch lever. Then you could remove the excess free play and still put the lever where you want it.

[Guzzijens]

Update on this matter. A new master cylinder was not a huge success, I think I will live with it this way, maybe it will improve with some driving. Beside that, this new clutch plate has improved the behavior of the bike, it is not so "brutal" at downshifts anymore. 

Jens Martin

[KINDOY2]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:32 AM, Guzzijens said:

Hello everybody. During the winter I have done some upgrades to my RM, one of them was to try to reduce the ratteling noise at idle from the clutch. I bought a new clutch plate (Miba type), the noise is better, but the problem is that it drags. It seems to me that it require more throw-out distance, possible due to that it is thicker (1mm)? Have somebody experience this? I hope to avoid taking the engine out and put the old plate in...Can a 13 mm master cylinder be a solution?

Jens Martin

 

I had a similar situation after putting the 

Ram Clutch in the Scrua..The friction plate is slightly thicker..One of the things I did was to zip tie the clutch lever pulled to the bars and leave it while not riding it for the first several  rides..I've done this with other bikes and it does help a little bit if their is any air bubbles in the line in clutch or brakes...over night they can slowly rise to the top.

  Another thing is , How many miles do you have on the new clutch? after I rode mine I noticed mine would just get slightly better and not drag as much and it began to find neutral a little easier.., I even intentionally slipped the clutch a little more than usual on occasion, It was suggested by an older and  highly regarded mechanic friend of mine that it would get better after a couple of hundred miles..and it did...its about 80% better to the point it doesn't bother me at all anymore......   My 2 Cents