ZDDP levels in motor oil

[MartyNZ]

Penrite have some useful comments about oil. Note the paragraph about the change of additive requirements since the introduction of unleaded fuel.

https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Oil Composition and Additives/44/zinc/396

[docc]

8 minutes ago, MartyNZ said:

Penrite have some useful comments about oil. Note the paragraph about unleaded fuel and oil additives.

https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Oil Composition and Additives/44/zinc/396

Nice! This may be some of the explanation of my 1200 ppm impression:

"In effect, an engine oil that contains about 1000ppm or 0.1% phosphorus (approx.1100-1200 or 0.11-0.12% PPM Zinc) or higher, will easily provide the required anti wear properties for older engines. "

But also, when the SG specification that my 2000 Sport was introduced under changed to SH:

"When you add Zinc to an oil, you also add Phosphorus and there have been limits on it since the days of API SH (1994) when a 0.12% (1200ppm) limit was imposed."

[docc]

Here is the technical data for Shaeffer "V-twin motorcycle oil" :

https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/229-707-td.pdf

[Lucky Phil]

24 minutes ago, docc said:

Here is the technical data for Shaeffer "V-twin motorcycle oil" :

https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/229-707-td.pdf

Not sure why the Zink level have a "range" of 1600-2000 which is more than is needed anyway. There is a limit to how much Zink is required and anything over about 1400 ppm is of no benefit and can indeed be leaning more towards a negative. A case of more isn't necessarily better. No Full Synthetic motor oil needs or should be built on a 20W base these days. This oil looks like it's aimed at the "old school" people that don't really understand modern oils and always reach for the 20W-50 because they can't change their ways. Like everything else these days there are manufacturers that are quite willing to cater for any market they think they can make a dollar out of whether the product makes any sense or not. We are living in the "too many choices, bespoke world" to an extent now.

Best oil grade for a BB Guzzi. Full synthetic 10W-40/50/60 depending on climate and usage with at least 1000ppm Zink. I've run my 2 valve engine on Mobil1 0W-40 for years and the Daytona engine on Full Synth 10W-60 Penrite as it has some special needs.    

Ciao   

[docc]

Can the negative of too much zinc (greater than 1400 ppm) be clarified?

[Lucky Phil]

4 minutes ago, docc said:

Can the negative of too much zinc (greater than 1400 ppm) be clarified?

Corrosion to some bearing and bush material docc. Too much takes the oil in the acidic direction.

Ciao

[docc]

Thanks. Could this affect our big end bearings? Or what, specifically, in the V11 motor?

[Lucky Phil]

Just now, docc said:

Thanks. Could this affect our big end bearings? Or what, specifically, in the V11 motor?

The issue is generally with "yellow metal" bearings such as rocker bushes and thrust washers but also to a degree with big end bearings as well I think docc. Any corrosion creates particle which leads to "corrosive wear". It's generally accepted that a flat tappet engines is fine with a minimum of 1000ppm but tests have shown that even 800 ppm is sufficient as a bare minimum. somewhere between 1000-1200 seems the sweet spot.

Ciao 

[docc]

10 hours ago, p6x said:

Indeed.

What we don't know, what is the minimum ppm we should have. From what I understand, more is not synonym of better. This is the a big dilemma. As I have read, consumers are not really interested in what oil is used in their vehicles. There is some common interest in vintage vehicles owners though.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

The issue is generally with "yellow metal" bearings such as rocker bushes and thrust washers but also to a degree with big end bearings as well I think docc. Any corrosion creates particle which leads to "corrosive wear". It's generally accepted that a flat tappet engines is fine with a minimum of 1000ppm but tests have shown that even 800 ppm is sufficient as a bare minimum. somewhere between 1000-1200 seems the sweet spot.

Ciao 

Progress!    

[80CX100]

Historically, I always ran Valvoline 20w50 dino motorcycle oil and that's what I ran in my vintage big block guzzis, I think I've still got half a case left and I'll work my way through it on those bikes. I'm considering switching those bikes over to the full synthetic Motul at some point, but I'm hesitant, just in case I cause oil leak problems with seals etc, fwiw idk.

Once I started riding modern big block 2 valve guzzis, ie California Vintage, Griso, they recommended 10w60 synthetic, due to difficulty sourcing it here in Canada I've settled on Motul 7100 and that's what I've decided to run in my V11 just to simplify things.

I can't remember if I ever verified what the exact levels of phosphorus or ZDDP Zinc were, but iirc knowledgeable guzzistis were of the opinion it was a good oil.

On the Motul 7100 label they don't list ppm of ingredients, but they do state that it meets the MA2 standard and is JASO backwards compatible.

Of interest, they specifically mention that it meets or exceeds the manufacturers specs for KTM, Husqvarna, MV Augusta and Moto Guzzi.

fwiw ymmv

[pete roper]

While ZDDP is known to be *good* my bet is there are now other additives that will offer equal or even superior protection.

Oil is good. I use it otherwise my engines squeak.

[Lucky Phil]

4 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

Historically, I always ran Valvoline 20w50 dino motorcycle oil and that's what I ran in my vintage big block guzzis, I think I've still got half a case left and I'll work my way through it on those bikes. I'm considering switching those bikes over to the full synthetic Motul at some point, but I'm hesitant, just in case I cause oil leak problems with seals etc, fwiw idk.

Once I started riding modern big block 2 valve guzzis, ie California Vintage, Griso, they recommended 10w60 synthetic, due to difficulty sourcing it here in Canada I've settled on Motul 7100 and that's what I've decided to run in my V11 just to simplify things.

I can't remember if I ever verified what the exact levels of phosphorus or ZDDP Zinc were, but iirc knowledgeable guzzistis were of the opinion it was a good oil.

On the Motul 7100 label they don't list ppm of ingredients, but they do state that it meets the MA2 standard and is JASO backwards compatible.

Of interest, they specifically mention that it meets or exceeds the manufacturers specs for KTM, Husqvarna, MV Augusta and Moto Guzzi.

fwiw ymmv

I've never been able to source a comprehensive TDS for any Motul oil hence I won't consider using it. If they won't divulge the details I won't use the product. The worry about conversion to full synthetic oils causing oil leaks is an old debunked story. 

 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, pete roper said:

While ZDDP is known to be *good* my bet is there are now other additives that will offer equal or even superior protection.

Oil is good. I use it otherwise my engines squeak.

The squeaking doesn't bother me Pete but the clunking does

Ciao

  

[pete roper]

You have to be super-alert. The squeak occurs just before the 'Dogga-Dogga' noise. The 'Dogga-Dogga' noise tends to cost a minimum of $1,000 per 'Dogga'.😂

[p6x]

15 hours ago, docc said:

Ah, yes, to wit (and I paraphrase):

> Phosphorous is harmful to catalytic converters. Not a V11 issue.

> High performance, flat-tappet motors should still use high ZDDP oil. [Yes, I would rate the V11 as "high performance" considering that it is an end point development of the V700 designed in the 1960s.]

And I quote, " The camshaft and lifters are responsiblefor triggering the precisely tuned movements of the valvetrain.

Without the protective film barrier provided by ZDDP, the cams and lifters wear from the force of operation, negatively affecting cam and valve operation."

"Too much" ZDDP does not appear to be an issue for the V11 motor. No mention of engine damage that I can see in the article, only catalytic converter damage.

Here's another variation about ZDDP/ZDTP.

This is from a well known oil manufacturer based in UK: Duckams.

I feel this one is a better article, https://www.duckhams.com/zddp-what-does-it-all-mean/

Quote

Tests have clearly concluded that excessive concentrations of ZDDP do not add any additional wear protection benefits for the metals in the engine and in fact could present issues related to ‘over-plating’ of components with specific tolerances.

TOP 3 MYTHS

Quote

Myth 1:
The presence of Zinc doesn’t necessarily mean that it is ZDDP. Zinc in pure form offers anti-oxidation properties to motor oil but in itself does not contribute to anti – wear protection.

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Myth 2:
Like a good diet, you must have a good quality balance of all the elements of motor oil that contribute to its lubrication properties. The base oils that a product uses are just as important, that is why we at Duckhams use the highest quality mineral group base oil. Viscosity characteristics and base oil quality are crucial to work with ZDDP in effective and balanced premium motor oils.

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Myth 3:
Just buying oil with the ‘most’ ZDDP is not necessarily the answer. ZDDP is most effective at particular concentrations.Optimum levels of ZDDP are correct NOT maximum levels.

Do we know how much ZDDP is the perfect recipe for our V11?

We have spoken a lot about Zinc and Phosphorus, but there is a third one which is also important: Molybdenum