ZDDP levels in motor oil

[docc]

This makes sesnse regarding more than optimal ZDDP, then:

" . . . could present issues related to ‘over-plating’ of components with specific tolerances. "

[Pressureangle]

I'll state my understanding here without citation of sources, which I've either buried or failed to save.

ZDDP works by attaching ionic molecules to the base metal, creating a boundary layer of ZDDP which is far more durable and scuff-resistant than the base metal. ZDDP is bad for the lifespan of catalytic converters, so they first limited the amount added, then by the SG oil classification eliminated it almost entirely. 
My recent research into gear oils and greases led also to the knowledge that Boron/Moly compounds are replacing ZDDP as extreme pressure additives, but they work with a different chemical strategy-I'm not sure if they stack up in pores, or attach chemically, but they are an order of magnitude more slippery than ZDDP when in place and apparently do less harm to cats. Don't have meaningful information at hand, but I don't think 'overplating' is an issue as much as the 'minimum required amount' of ZDDP. An old automotive V8 has a lot more surfaces to cover than a V2, and generally holds less oil per surface inch. Meh, the ZDDP content per quart is probably the 'minumim required' balanced with 'least material cost'. 

[Pressureangle]

5 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

I'll state my understanding here without citation of sources, which I've either buried or failed to save.

ZDDP works by attaching ionic molecules to the base metal, creating a boundary layer of ZDDP which is far more durable and scuff-resistant than the base metal. ZDDP is bad for the lifespan of catalytic converters, so they first limited the amount added, then by the SG oil classification eliminated it almost entirely. 
My recent research into gear oils and greases led also to the knowledge that Boron/Moly compounds are replacing ZDDP as extreme pressure additives, but they work with a different chemical strategy-I'm not sure if they stack up in pores, or attach chemically, but they are an order of magnitude more slippery than ZDDP when in place and apparently do less harm to cats. Don't have meaningful information at hand, but I don't think 'overplating' is an issue as much as the 'minimum required amount' of ZDDP. An old automotive V8 has a lot more surfaces to cover than a V2, and generally holds less oil per surface inch. Meh, the ZDDP content per quart is probably the 'minumim required' balanced with 'least material cost'. 

Oh yeah, the significant bit I forgot was that ZDDP only attaches at high heat, which means your metal bits have to rub hard enough to make the heat necessary for bonding. It works obviously, but the B/Mo doesn't require the heat. 

[Tomchri]

Just saying,,, like Pressureangle said, a big Chevy with 4 quarts in Death valley in 69, oh well they didn't last long anyway. Been a heavy user of Molykote years ago, in my rotation drilling gears, trannys, rear ends.    Human can be covinced, had a Briggs & Stratton with a rod noise (broken plastic filler pipe un upserved) a friend came by saying I have something magic called Power Up. New oil and PU,, still working at least 12 years ago, must contain Molykote   Change the oil is a cheap insurance.  Liqui Moly prolly next purchase, I think.

Cheers Tom.

 

[p6x]

Got a reply from AMSOIL:

 

[docc]

Even more elusive, and equally (or more) important is getting declarations of the actual Base Oil.

[p6x]

1 hour ago, docc said:

Even more elusive, and equally (or more) important is getting declarations of the actual Base Oil.

I don't know if you are aware, there is a lot of bad press about AMSOI.

But at least, they answered my query for the additives. I did not ask which base group they used in their oil. But they claim it is fully synthetic like everybody else.

But I have also read a lot of opinions on fully to semi synthetic oils. It is also a subject under debate.

At the end of the day, all of us are using oils based on our personal feel and opinion.

I like Motul, because Motul was the oil I was using in the 1970's, and they were one of the few brands that proposed oil specific for motorcycles.

At present, my V11 works with LIQUI MOLY of which I don't know much if expected they are Moto2 official oil supplier.

-

[Lucky Phil]

2 minutes ago, p6x said:

I don't know if you are aware, there is a lot of bad press about AMSOI.

But at least, they answered my query for the additives. I did not ask which base group they used in their oil. But they claim it is fully synthetic like everybody else.

But I have also read a lot of opinions on fully to semi synthetic oils. It is also a subject under debate.

At the end of the day, all of us are using oils based on our personal feel and opinion.

I like Motul, because Motul was the oil I was using in the 1970's, and they were one of the few brands that proposed oil specific for motorcycles.

At present, my V11 works with LIQUI MOLY of which I don't know much if expected they are Moto2 official oil supplier.

-

Do tell.

Ciao

[guzzigray]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:40 AM, p6x said:

I am working on oil at present.

This is so unfortunate that excepted for LIQUI MOLLY, none of the oil manufacturers are answering my emails.

I found some websites with similar interests and motorbikes than ours. Understand this as: "older motorcycles, 4 strokes, ranging from one to six cylinders, air cooled.

So far, I have been able to recouped some information; 

1) Multigrade oil is admissible. Fully synthetic oils are best.

2) Grade range should be selected according to the specific temperature conditions your motorcycle is mostly exposed to.

The biggest challenge, is to find out about the additives list and amount. The so-called ppm of ZDDP (Zinc) and Phosphorus which our V11 require.

My current quest is to clarify which oils if any, still contain those elements. From what I understand the oil components that we had in all oils for older motorcycles may no longer be present in those conceived for modern motorcycles. This is the information I have been looking for.

Mobil 1 V Twin 20-50. Available at AutoZone.

 

mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

[p6x]

On 5/9/2022 at 8:32 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Do tell.

Ciao

You only need to type AMSOIL bad reviews to get a load of hits and opinions. All of these as unverifiable one to the other.

As I quoted, there are some negative reviews floating around. I am not concerned as I have no intention to use AMSOIL in my V11.

However, they are one of the rare among all the oil companies I tried, who answered my query to get a detailed list of their additives in their 20W50 Motorcycle oil.

 

[Guzzimax]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:29 AM, p6x said:

I don't know if you are aware, there is a lot of bad press about AMSOI.

But at least, they answered my query for the additives. I did not ask which base group they used in their oil. But they claim it is fully synthetic like everybody else.

But I have also read a lot of opinions on fully to semi synthetic oils. It is also a subject under debate.

At the end of the day, all of us are using oils based on our personal feel and opinion.

I like Motul, because Motul was the oil I was using in the 1970's, and they were one of the few brands that proposed oil specific for motorcycles.

At present, my V11 works with LIQUI MOLY of which I don't know much if expected they are Moto2 official oil supplier.

-

I’ve always used Motul or Putoline 10-40 semi synthetic in the V11s, but the issue of the amount of ZDDP present is relevant as they’re flat tappet motors and there’s no information about these oils ZDDP ppm level 

For the 8v high cam motor from the Griso / Stelvio, a fully synthetic 10w60 is the manufacturer recommended grade, as is a must as it’s an oil / air cooled motor with additional coolant galleries in the heads. My Griso has a roller tappet motor, and the saga of the premature failure of the flat tappets has been well documented, presumably not helped by the lack of ZDDP in todays oils

[pete roper]

Nah, tha failures of the tappets in the 8V had bugger all to do with oil or it's additives.

[docc]

38 minutes ago, pete roper said:

Nah, tha failures of the tappets in the 8V had bugger all to do with oil or it's additives.

Did that come down to improper heat treatment on the lifter surfaces or something more complicated?

[pete roper]

Nah, it was a combination of things I believe. I've written about it before elsewhere but when I have time I can cover it here if you'd like?

[docc]

29 minutes ago, pete roper said:

Nah, it was a combination of things I believe. I've written about it before elsewhere but when I have time I can cover it here if you'd like?

I seem to recall your recount of the complex contributors. Having "missed the bullet" with my early V11, I failed to memorize the issues. 

The whole debacle made me feel rather fortunate about my V11 experience. We mostly sit at the computer console and rant about oil and relays. Got off easy, methinks . . . 

Regarding the V11, I have quoted you as saying, "They don't crash well."

Hard earned wisdom, that (for some of us).