Installing oil temperature sensor

[pete roper]

Can I say that fitting an oil temperature gauge, especially in that position and doubly especially of that type is an exercise in futility. It will tell you ritually nothing and certainly won't 'Protect' your engine.

[Scud]

Tomchri   p6x acknowledges that this is a totally unnecessary modification to the bike in his opening post. He just wants to do it because of reasons. Actually, he didn't give any reasons. He just wants it.

 

[moderator edit to correct the reference to the original comment.]

[docc]

1 hour ago, Scud said:

Tomchri   p6x acknowledges that this is a totally unnecessary modification to the bike in his opening post. He just wants to do it because of reasons. Actually, he didn't give any reasons. He just wants it.

Moderator note: Because of the way this thread was started by moving posts from another thread, the first post shows the Original Poster as @Tomchri, yet the member who started the discussion in the "Formotion clock fit" thread is @p6x. 

I copied&pasted p6x's original comment into Tomchri's reply as the first post in this new thread.

Starting new threads by moving posts can help keep thread content more dedicated, but can also create issues like this. Sorry for the confusion from my "housekeeping."

[edit: I've made several changes to the original posts where the "split" occurred to help clarify. Thanks for y'all's patience. docc]

 

[Weegie]

1 hour ago, pete roper said:

Can I say that fitting an oil temperature gauge, especially in that position and doubly especially of that type is an exercise in futility. It will tell you ritually nothing and certainly won't 'Protect' your engine.

A little harsh Pete, but you've always called it as you see it and you've forgot more than I'll ever know when it comes to these engines (or engines in general come to that)

I agree to an extent but as I've got a dipstick temp gauge on all my engines (laughed at by most as a useless farkle). I use it especially with the HiCam. It's less useful on a 2v/v headed bike (my experience is they're more robust) and personally think a pressure gauge is of more use (but I have them installed as well).

I tend to glance at mine on the Sporti when caught in unavoidable traffic queues and want to know how long (or how far) I'm going to get before I need to pull over and stop.

Once sump temp goes over 120C your close to reaching the limit, although the HiCam can go as high as 130C, the oil pressure is dropping through the floor by that time and definately time to pull over. That said on the Sporti it usually starts to loose power, once above 120 and you can feel the heat coming off it, even then the oil pressure is still holding up (told ya the 2 v/v bikes are more robust)

When it comes down to it, it's personal choice, so if @p6x wants it why not?

[moderator edit to correct the origin of the discussion: p6x]

It's certainly not doing any harm, it helped me gain a rough idea of how a particular engine behaves under various conditions.

[p6x]

4 hours ago, Scud said:

Tomchri   p6x acknowledges that this is a totally unnecessary modification to the bike in his opening post. He just wants to do it because of reasons. Actually, he didn't give any reasons. He just wants it.

 

[moderator edit to correct the reference to the original comment.]

Hi Scud,

Here's why I would like to install an analogical oil temperature thermometer among other things;

Let's go back when I was a young boy, growing up in the 60's. At that time, sports cars were invariably coming from the other side of the channel. Jaguar, BL Triumph, Mini, Aston Martin, MG... all these cars had something that fascinated us, envious youth. Dashboards full of these mysterious Smith or Jaeger gauges.

We quickly devised a rule; the more gauges, the better car. This is the reason why one of my early car was an Innocenti Cooper, which had those wonderful little gauges, and no or little warning lights. Amps, Volts, Watts, Oil Temp, Oil Press, Water Temp... what not. I even owned a Renault 21 Turbo which had a boost pressure gauge... how about that?

I even have an anecdote about oil pressure. The mechanic forgot to put oil in my Cooper. There was no oil pressure light, but the gauge reading was zero. A sensor can fail, a light can fail, an analogical instrument? not so much.

Anyway, when I was testing battle tanks, we had additional manometers and gauges. Plenty of pressures and temperatures from various components that we were testing.

To finish up with this, I spent thirty five years of my professional life logging oil wells. Initially, all the readings were analogical. All the tools were monitored using oscilloscopes and other equipment plotting the response from the tools.

Back to my desire to monitor the oil temperature of the Guzzi today. Nostalgia? wanting to be closer to the V11? who knows. Porsche 911 air cooled had oil temperature indicators. Why not the Le Mans?

How useful will it be? I don't know, but I know I will enjoy having one more thing to look at on those long rides...

[Tomchri]

8 hours ago, pete roper said:

Can I say that fitting an oil temperature gauge, especially in that position and doubly especially of that type is an exercise in futility. It will tell you ritually nothing and certainly won't 'Protect' your engine.

There Is the reason why all mine has been taken off, disconnected. Women have an advantage in racing,, usually no concerns for the engine, just full throttle       Ears, eyes and nose will have to do for me. A blind guy can pick a good wooden boat with his nose.

 Cheers Tom 

[Lucky Phil]

10 hours ago, pete roper said:

Can I say that fitting an oil temperature gauge, especially in that position and doubly especially of that type is an exercise in futility. It will tell you ritually nothing and certainly won't 'Protect' your engine.

Yea I agree Pete but like removing the airbox and fitting Pod filters it's pointless discussing it. Some people don't want rationality to get in the way of flawed logic. It's like putting a CHT sensor on the muffler outlet. If I want a battery of gauges to tell me every detail of the engines operation I'll just drive my car or go flying with friends and sit in a cockpit. 

Phil 

[docc]

10 hours ago, pete roper said:

Can I say that fitting an oil temperature gauge, especially in that position and doubly especially of that type is an exercise in futility. It will tell you ritually nothing and certainly won't 'Protect' your engine.

 

10 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Yea I agree Pete but like removing the airbox and fitting Pod filters it's pointless discussing it. Some people don't want rationality to get in the way of flawed logic. It's like putting a CHT sensor on the muffler outlet. If I want a battery of gauges to tell me every detail of the engines operation I'll just drive my car or go flying with friends and sit in a cockpit. 

Phil 

Seriously? Neither of you have modified a machine for nostalgia, or embellishment, or just to tease an onlooker?

No rubber chook, bungeed on for the ride with its beak to the wind?

I once re-jetted the carburettor of my Japanese engineered GB500, then modified its exhaust. I enjoy the outcome. Pretty sure I changed the stated 33 horsepower to maybe 28 and shaved about 10 mph off the top end. Oh, and gutted the fuel economy.

But I love her more for it . . .

[p6x]

10 hours ago, pete roper said:

Can I say that fitting an oil temperature gauge, especially in that position and doubly especially of that type is an exercise in futility. It will tell you ritually nothing and certainly won't 'Protect' your engine.

I am not attempting to install an oil temperature gauge in that position.

It will give me the oil temperature in the sump, at that is all I am looking for. Just because I am curious to know what it is. Also, I would rather have a pressure gauge to monitor the oil pressure, rather than a warning light.

 

[Scud]

Seems to me this thread is about doing something for the fun of it, not trying to make a technical improvement. Extra gauges can be fun, and some can even be useful.  When I did the Speethut speedo and tach on my previous red LeMans, I added oil pressure and voltmeter. They were fun to look at, especially riding at night. And the oil pressure gauge helped me diagnose a problem in a way that a simple warning light did not. 

The guy who bought that LeMans said, after owning it for a while, that the set of four matching gauges was his favorite modification on that bike.

Does the oil temp gauge make the rider happy? If yes, then good improvement.

 

[p6x]

26 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Yea I agree Pete but like removing the airbox and fitting Pod filters it's pointless discussing it. Some people don't want rationality to get in the way of flawed logic. It's like putting a CHT sensor on the muffler outlet. If I want a battery of gauges to tell me every detail of the engines operation I'll just drive my car or go flying with friends and sit in a cockpit. 

Phil 

Great! this is how you prefer it. I myself want a battery of gauges to survey every aspect of the V11. There is no specific rationale that you would condone, it is just how I would like to do it.

Which shouldn't my motorcycle provide me with the same information than my car? I like to know what time it is, I like to know what the outside temperature is. What's wrong with me?

[footgoose]

just curious. anyone know why they call them idiot lights?

[Lucky Phil]

6 minutes ago, p6x said:

Great! this is how you prefer it. I myself want a battery of gauges to survey every aspect of the V11. There is no specific rationale that you would condone, it is just how I would like to do it.

Which shouldn't my motorcycle provide me with the same information than my car? I like to know what time it is, I like to know what the outside temperature is. What's wrong with me?

Probably because "it's not a car". This subject is the province of those who are basically "car people" in mindset. What's wrong with you? Your DNA is that of a "car guy". You can't do anything about it I'm afraid you're just stuck with hanging extraneous crap and additional failure points on your bike together with being bombarded with information you in all likely hood won't fully understand and will therefore spend time worrying about. 

Phil

 

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, footgoose said:

just curious. anyone know why they call them idiot lights?

Because there're to dumb to articulate or understand the word "warning"

Phil

[pete roper]

Don't get me wrong. If someone wants a gauge by all means fit one. The thing is that one fitted into the sump in one of the redundant plug holes or indeed anywhere else isn't going to give an accurate assessment of what the temperature of the oil is where it's actually doing the heat removing part of its work. Where that is is at the bearing faces on the crank, big ends and camshaft and to get any meaningful info you'd either need to have the sensor in a delivery gallery or better yet, in the stream of oil exiting the bearings.
 

In one way this actually means that an oil temperature dipstick isn't actually too bad a solution! Where it sits in the motor means that it is in the path of the constant streamer of oil pouring out from between the connecting rods as the crank spins but it's still pretty hit and miss, literally, and of course it will be dumping heat even as it travels towards the probe on the stick!

If the sensor is in the wall of the sump it's reading is going to reflect little on the temperature of the oil where it is doing its job and the sump wall itself is going to act as a dirty great heat sink!

Then there is the types of gauge. This 'Analog' type of gauge must use a sensor with some sort of waxstat or the like in it which then pushes on the column of fluid in the feed tube to the handlebar mounted gauge itself. In the gauge one assumes the fluid presses on some sort of membrane or mechanism that translates that linear movement into the rotational movement that moves the needle. The problem there is of course that the environment that the tube passes through will have a profound effect on the gauge's *Reading*. Running it up the back of the block and then through the valley will lead to it being hotter and therefore the medium within it expanding more than if it is routed away from engine heat. That will change the reading on the gauge rendering it inaccurate. As will different ambient temperatures that the machine is run in and the bike's velocity as that will effect air flow.

By all means fit a gauge if you want. Just don't put any stock by it! With the pushrod motors in all their iterations we know that unless something is really wrong with their set-up they are massively over-cooled and it will be very difficult to get them to overheat to a dangerous degree. The early Hi-Cams? Not so much. Later Hi-Cam is so grotesquely over cooled it is actually hard to keep them hot enough in winter!