home heating oil rant

[mikev]

Last year in December we paid 2.89/gallon for oil.  (Massacusetts) Today we paid 4.67 that is a 47% increase in the price of oil.  Additionally, last January we put in a new oil burning furnace.  We were shocked to find the state no longer offers rebates for new equipment, and only wants to incentivise electric heat (furnace guy told me this). The state didn't publish their 2022 incentives in January, not until February but we were't grandfathered in to 2021 which did have oil burner incentives, just got rejected.

 

Wrote all my state and federal reps.  One responded his aid could help us get money from state if we qualified for low income heating assistance....Thank you for your response.  Rather frustrating answer.  How do you explain a near 50% increase in less than 1 year?  It's outrageous.  What are the root causes?  Is anyone on Beacon Hill talking about this?  Surely there are some policy decisions you are able to vote on that are in some way related.

 

Are you able to speak to people in the state government who do have influence on oil prices or the regulations to reintroduce incentives to homeowners for buying new oil burning home heating systems and not just electric heat?  Is the only option for voters accepting state funded handouts?

[Pressureangle]

The root of the rise in petroleum product prices in the US is that Europe has to import a huge amount to make up for the tomfoolery in Ukraine and Russia. You, and I, are paying for the economic pressure NATO is bringing to bear on Russia.

[Scud]

Sorry to hear about that. I know a lot of people rely on oil heat in the US Northeast. Here in California, we're getting ready to ban sales of new natural gas heaters (in 2030). So I guess electricians will be busy installing new sub-panels in homes to provided dedicated power to heaters. I've got solar panels going up in a few weeks - Federal tax credit of 30%, combined with reduced electrical bill (and protection against future electric rate hikes) makes this an easy financial decision.

[Joe]

8 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

The root of the rise in petroleum product prices in the US is that Europe has to import a huge amount to make up for the tomfoolery in Ukraine and Russia. You, and I, are paying for the economic pressure NATO is bringing to bear on Russia.

The war is part of the answer, the other is the Go Green or else policies that predated any war. I’m from KY where my company I work for is exposed to many industrial job sites, power plants and Coal mines included. During the Obama era, the EPA pressured TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) to not keep their coal power plants up to date w regulations. In turn by default, a local Powerplant, TVA Paradise (historically powered the eastern US power grid, not Ky) was completely closed a couple years ago, without the ability to reverse course, a total tear down. There is a natural gas power-plant planned for its replacement, 👍🏼 but without a major gas pipeline to supply it. 🤔

While visiting Gibson Co coal in South Western Indiana recently, I asked who are some of the major buyers at the mine. I was surprised to learn, a large portion was being bought by Germany to supply their newly reopened coal power-plants. (4500 miles away). 😮

So cheap American coal energy is bypassing shuttered local power plants to supply German power plants, to keep the lights on (hopefully) during the Ukraine/Russian war.

What a cluster of go Green policies gone haywire.

🤷🏻‍♂️ Sorry about the cheaper energy coal in my backyard rant.

[Tomchri]

What else is new .

Cheers Tom.

[guzziart]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:34 PM, Tomchri said:

What else is new .

Cheers Tom.

Fusion breakthrough!

[gstallons]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:23 PM, Joe said:

The war is part of the answer, the other is the Go Green or else policies that predated any war. I’m from KY where my company I work for is exposed to many industrial job sites, power plants and Coal mines included. During the Obama era, the EPA pressured TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) to not keep their coal power plants up to date w regulations. In turn by default, a local Powerplant, TVA Paradise (historically powered the eastern US power grid, not Ky) was completely closed a couple years ago, without the ability to reverse course, a total tear down. There is a natural gas power-plant planned for its replacement, 👍🏼 but without a major gas pipeline to supply it. 🤔

While visiting Gibson Co coal in South Western Indiana recently, I asked who are some of the major buyers at the mine. I was surprised to learn, a large portion was being bought by Germany to supply their newly reopened coal power-plants. (4500 miles away). 😮

So cheap American coal energy is bypassing shuttered local power plants to supply German power plants, to keep the lights on (hopefully) during the Ukraine/Russian war.

What a cluster of go Green policies gone haywire.

🤷🏻‍♂️ Sorry about the cheaper energy coal in my backyard rant.

The TVA sister plant at Kevil (outside of Paducah) is scheduled to close and get replaced w/solar panels. Solar panels ? I don't know where you live . but I have lived here 66 yrs. and have not seen the sun glow for 24 hrs. Steam powered generators do burn 24 hrs. There is so much BS propaganda going around I'm not sure what is going to happen .  USEC was shut down here too . Oak Ridge was closed too . And you can't even discuss nuclear energy  . Let's not get off on a tangent , I just had to rant.

 Listen , I am a Democrat and I don't know where in the f**k things are going .

[Joe]

4 hours ago, gstallons said:

The TVA sister plant at Kevil (outside of Paducah) is scheduled to close and get replaced w/solar panels. Solar panels ? I don't know where you live . but I have lived here 66 yrs. and have not seen the sun glow for 24 hrs. Steam powered generators do burn 24 hrs. There is so much BS propaganda going around I'm not sure what is going to happen .  USEC was shut down here too . Oak Ridge was closed too . And you can't even discuss nuclear energy  . Let's not get off on a tangent , I just had to rant.

 Listen , I am a Democrat and I don't know where in the f**k things are going .

Preach, the direction we’re going is to ride a bicycle to work. 

[audiomick]

On 9/27/2022 at 4:03 PM, mikev said:

Last year in December we paid 2.89/gallon for oil.  (Massacusetts) Today we paid 4.67 that is a 47% increase in the price of oil

To put that into perspective: my de-facto father in law got a letter from his energy provider the other week. In Germany, by the way. He had been paying just over €250,- a month for gas. They informed him that as of Jan. the price "had to" go up to well over €1.000,- a month.

Our provider has informed us that the price for electricity is going to double as of January. Don't know what the gas price is going to do, but it wont be pretty.

 

Europe was, before the war in the Ukraine started, getting something over 60% of its gas from Russia. Most of it was going through pipes through the Ukraine. Also, I believe a large percentage of the diesel in Europe was coming from Russian oil. Given that diesel motors are almost the norm here, that is a not insignificant problem

 

So

On 9/27/2022 at 4:22 PM, Pressureangle said:

The root of the rise in petroleum product prices in the US is that Europe has to import a huge amount to make up for the tomfoolery in Ukraine and Russia.

Yes, this is true. One might argue that the european embargo on Russian oil is a foolish gambit in that context. On the other hand, Putin is financing the war to a large extent through fossil energy sales. I don't think anyone wants to keep financing his meglomania. Also, would it be wise to remain largely dependent for energy on a country whose leader has proven himself to be, to put it mildly, somewhat erratic?

On 9/28/2022 at 1:23 AM, Joe said:

So cheap American coal energy...to supply German power plants, to keep the lights on (hopefully) during the Ukraine/Russian war.

Much more importantly, to keep the industry running so the economy doesn't collapse. Lights are good too...

 

It is worth noting that at least some of those coal power plants were supposed to be going out of service around now. Also, a couple of nuclear power plants that were scheduled to go off line will be kept going at least until the end of this winter.

The bloke who had to decide about that is Robert Habek, vice chancellor and minister for the economy and climate protection. He is a member of the green party.

 

In other words, it's all a bit complicated here right now.

[Joe]

The bloke who had to decide about that is Robert Habek, vice chancellor and minister for the economy and climate protection. He is a member of the green party.

A moment of clarity? 

[gstallons]

FWIW , never let a good crisis go to waste !

[audiomick]

32 minutes ago, Joe said:

... Habek, vice chancellor and minister for the economy and climate protection. He is a member of the green party.

A moment of clarity? 

No, He's pretty clear most of the time.

[LowRyter]

Is fuel oil the same as diesel or a close relative?  Diesel was $5 a month ago and $3.50 now.  Perhaps I should load up the external tank on my truck? My house is natural gas and electric, everything gas is gas.  That was the best cost and environmental solution when I built the place 30 years ago.   Still the cheapest of conventional choices.  I think 40% of electrical generation is from wind in my state, the rest from gas.  There's a guy on WG that used to live in Kansas that converted his house to solar and thought it was great.  

Anyway, I read that diesel will continue to have a higher spread vs gasoline due to demand imbalance. There are only so many gallons of diesel that can come out a barrel of oil, if folks are using less gasoline, the spread will be higher.  True or not?  It's just what I read.  But that's the scare regarding EVs...again, I'm not saying it's true.  

[audiomick]

1 hour ago, LowRyter said:

Is fuel oil the same as diesel or a close relative?

Assuming "fuel oil" is what the heating plant and water heater in a house uses, yes, i.e. close relative at least.

Apparently one can run at least a "low tech" diesel motor on "Heizöl" (= "heating oil", presumably what you mean with "fuel oil") That is highly illegal here, though, and is considered tax fraud. Heizöl isn't subject to the tax that transport fuels are, so using it instead of diesel avoids tax that the government is keen to have.

There used to be an oil burner for the heating and hot water in the house where my girlfriend's father lives. The room in the cellar where the old tank still is, still smells faintly of diesel, even though it all got converted to gas a number of years ago.

Regarding what it is exactly:

the first paragraph of this Wiki article translates thus:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitteldestillat

Quote

Middle distillate is the name given to the products obtained from the refining of crude oil in the "middle" boiling range (140 °C to 370 °C).[3] They occur in two primary fractions as kerosene (petroleum) with a boiling range of 140-250 °C and gasoil with a boiling range of about 250-350 °C.[4] These include light heating oil, diesel fuel and Jet A1.

or this english Wiki article on more or less the same topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

Quote

Fuel oil is any of various fractions obtained from the distillation of petroleum (crude oil). Such oils include distillates (the lighter fractions) and residues (the heavier fractions). Fuel oils include heavy fuel oil, marine fuel oil (MFO), bunker fuel, furnace oil (FO), gas oil (gasoil), heating oils (such as home heating oil), diesel fuel and others.

 

[Joe]

3 hours ago, audiomick said:

No, He's pretty clear most of the time.

I think its cool that Illinois Basin coal is being bought as fast as they can mine it, to help out Germany's current strategy to diversify fuel sources.