Starter button.

[MartyNZ]

3 hours ago, audiomick said:

...how hard is it to pull the starter motor apart?

See repair/overhaul advice here:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/valeo/

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/boschvaleostarter.htm

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/valeo-starter-refresh.954653/

You could also search this site for "valeo". You will be going down a well trodden path 

[audiomick]

Thanks Marty.

[audiomick]

I've just been in the garage and pulled the starter motor off. I only got it half way apart, and then realised I had to come back home and read the instructions that @MartyNZ kindly provided properly. Nevertheless, I reckon the starter motor has been replaced at some point. The bracket for the "decorative" cover is held on to the body of the starter with cable ties, which I assume is not original. I'm contemplating leaving that off altogether, far too shiny for me, a little pointless, and in the end only excess weight.

Anyway, up to where I got, it all looks almost new. Sufficient fresh, clean grease on the moving bits, no dirt. I can turn the motor by hand quite easily. If I don't discover magnets without clips inside, I have to assume that it is absolutely ok.

 

One question: the number on it is DEM D6RA210. It is a Valeo, not a copy. Does anyone know for sure if that is original or not?

[docc]

Same number on my original Valeo.

[audiomick]

I got the starter motor back together today, and put it back in. Still works.

 

But the starting problem isn't fixed.

So I did what I should have done before I started pulling things apart: got out the multi-volti and started seeing how many Volts were where.

First thing was the battery. I mentioned early on in this thread that I was assuming that the battery was ok. Maybe it was, and has been standing around doing nothing for too much of the intervening time, or maybe it wasn't. Today I had about 12.45 V with the ignition off, about 11.9 V with the ignition on, and I saw some "9.x" Voltage readings during start attempts. In my book, that is a good battery. Good for using as a door-stop, for instance.

Given that the current battery is installed 90° rotated from the original, which has led to some slightly creative solutions to get the wires to the battery poles, I am going to go looking for a replacement battery.

 

Second thing was the voltage reading at the connector to the starter solenoid. Sometimes it is more or less the "9.x V" that is present across the battery terminals when starting the bike. Sometimes, however, it is only 5.x V. Close to six volts, but under. That is when it doesn't start, funnily enough....

 

So, further testing and investigation is necessary, but at this point it looks like either the relay (No. 1  not pulling on properly, or an intermittent, or at least non-constant. fault in the wiring.

The search continues...

[emry]

You already know you need a good battery. Testing with a bad battery is moot. With a  poor source voltage anything down stream will always be suspect, because it doesn't have its requirements met.

 

Good battery. Then test. No searches.

[MartyNZ]

Have you read all the posts on this site that use the words "Startus Interuptus"? 

[audiomick]

3 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

Have you read all the posts on this site that use the words "Startus Interuptus"? 

No, mate. Haven't got three weeks spare time....

Seriously, I'm familiar with the concept. It also affected various CARC models, even if the specific cause and cure wasn't exactly the same.

I want to see for myself exactly where the Volts are going missing, but the knowledge that the power supply to the starter solenoid is marginal from the factory is in the front of my mind.

9 hours ago, emry said:

Testing with a bad battery is moot. ..

...No searches.

Yes, that is true. By the way, with "searching" I meant "testing".

On general principles, changing the battery first would be the right thing to do, no question. It is almost 100% certainly past its use by date.

Why I might do some testing with it:

I might try and charge it, and see if it takes a charge at all, and if it does, how long it holds it and how much power it can really deliver. Probably none. That is just curiosity a the behaviour of a dying battery.

I would prefer to be not using a brand new battery for a long period of time for testing, possibly with multiple activations of the starter. If the old one can limp through that, I'd rather use it.

That is not intended as advice for anyone else, or an argument against changing a battery that is known to be bad, or even just suspect. New battery is the way to go. However, although I am not an electrician, I understand what the multimeter is telling me (mostly...), and enough about the basics to draw usable conclusions even from a half flat battery. The dead battery, in the worst case, perhaps wont be enough to turn the starter, but it will suffice to show me high resistance contacts, for instance.

[Chuck]

You can get a cheap (Guzzi content) carbon pile load tester from places like Harbor Freight. It will tell you instantly whether the the battery can take a load or not. No guesswork, no unnecessary new battery being bought..

[audiomick]

5 hours ago, Chuck said:

, no unnecessary new battery being bought..

It's not just the condition of the battery. It doesn't fit right. It is mounted with the battery poles to the left of the bike, with some "creative" wiring to make the connections. All safe, but I don't like it much. Any excuse to get it back to original.

[audiomick]

I spent a couple of relaxing hours in the garage today.

The first task was "extracting" the starter circuit from the circuit diagramme out of the workshop manual. It is only a rough pencil drawing, but here it is for posterity:

Having done the drawing, I had a bit of a poke around with the multimeter. No success in as much as I didn't find anything that looked like a problem. Still using the suspect battery, contact 30 of relay #1 showed the same voltage as the plus pole of the battery, as did the wire from contact 87 of that relay that plugs on to the starter motor to switch the solenoid.

That was all without a load, i.e. with the relay not plugged in (for contact 30), or with the wire not plugged in to the starter. Theoretically, the voltage at the solenoid could be different if the wire were connected to the load. However, I've just had the starter completely apart, and it looks almost brand new inside, so I don't believe there is anything amiss there.

I've got the suspect battery on the charger at the moment, and will put it back in on Wednesday and see how it behaves. I'm not confident that simply charging the battery will be the solution; I reckon the battery has probably done it's dash, but I'll give it one last chance.

[audiomick]

I was at it again today with the charged battery. It showed just over 13V fresh off the charger, and still 12.6V or so after several rounds of activating the starter to measure things.

 

I pulled the #4 relay to de-activate the ECU, and unplugged the fuel pump, so I could activate the starter without starting the motor every time.

 

What I found was:

Voltage across the battery didn't go under 10V. According to various reliable sources, that is ok. As mentioned, after all the measurements the battery was still delivering about 12.6V. I'm beginning to hope that it is still ok, and was just not fully charged.

The charging system seems to be ok. Just over 13V at the battery at idle, and about 13.8V when revved up a bit. I didn't see more that just on 14V. That was a very quick measurement, as the bike was running in a closed garage, and I'm very careful about exhaust gases. Nevertheless, it looks ok, I think.

At the contact on the starter for the solenoid, i.e. the blade connector, I was seeing about 9.6V. At the moment I don't really know where the other 3 and a bit Volts are going. I need to do some more thinking about resistors in series and the resulting voltage divider characteristics. Maybe have a chat to my colleague who really knows about electrical and electronic circuits.

I did the Caig Deoxit business on the fuses. The relays got done on Monday. A further experiment might be to swap the #1 relay with one of the other ones, and see if that makes any difference.

 

Anyway, I had the impression today that maybe the starting problem is cleared up. Up till now, 3 or 4 start attempts would always result in at least one with only a click instead of the starter firing up. Today I didn't have any failures.

 

The bike is overdue for its bi-annual roadworthy inspection. I'm going to take it in next Tuesday for that. I probably wont do anything further until then. Maybe I'll just ride it a couple of times after that, and see how the battery holds up, and if the problem crops up again.

[docc]

That should be a field expedient for urgent intervention. I suppose a relay swap is a reasonable test point to observe for change in behavior. In that case, swap  in Relay #3/middle/Neutral as it is the least stressed/least critical (and that circuit has a redundant power supply through the sidestand switch with the stand up). Make certain any relay in Position #1/ Start is 5-pin.

Remind me what relays you are relying on?

[Tomchri]

 For clearing out starter and battery, very simple, I just take a pice of wire,  from starter solenoid to + cable.  And have you put in an extra start relay ? Problem gone.

Cheers Tom.

 

[audiomick]

21 minutes ago, docc said:

That should be a field expedient for urgent intervention. I suppose a relay swap is a reasonable test point to observe for change in behavior.

Yes, I am considering swapping to see if it makes any difference. If it does, I will get some new relays.

21 minutes ago, docc said:

 In that case, swap  in Relay #3/middle/Neutral as it is the least stressed/least critical.

Thanks for the confirmation. I was already thinking that would be the one to take.

22 minutes ago, docc said:

Make certain any relay in Position #1/ Start is 5-pin.

Remind me what relays you are relying on?

The relays in my V11 are all the same, and all 5 pin. They are these:

 

@Tomchri I haven't added another relay yet, but I'm considering doing exactly that very seriously.