Quick V11 Poll - please look!

[Guest Jason Tucker]

Everyone with a V11 - please take a sec to answer this poll. If the

problem doesn't affect you, just select "no". I want as many responses as

possible.

 

http://www.sepa-monster.org/members/jtucke...v11s/poll1.html

 

More and more folks seem to be complaining of this problem. Just curious

how many have experienced it.

 

Much thanks!

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[callison]

The poll reads:

 

Synopsis of problem: You stop and shut down your bike after riding for a while with no apparent problems. After sitting for about 20 minutes (give or take), you start the bike again, only to have it stall within about 5 to 10 seconds.

 

Note: this problem has nothing to do with vacuum in the tank - opeining the fuel filler cap has no effect. The only way to get the bike running again is to let it sit for a while, sometimes up to an hour or more.

 

------------------------------

 

Personally, I haven't experienced this at all. I do experience stalling at a stop after running at speed for a while, as well as the typical MG EFI burp, fart and cough in the lower RPM ranges added to the occasional "Green Light Stall" that seems prevalent with the Sport models (the Sport 1100i more so). I elected not do the poll, it seems off of the mark.

[dlaing]

I believe the poll refers to the "vapor lock" type symptoms that people have had. Carl's situation qualifies as a "NO", but the solution for both stalling problems may be the same????? I believe the problem could also be described as,

Synopsis of problem: You stop and shut down your bike after riding for a while with no apparent problems. After sitting for about 20 minutes (give or take), you TRY TO start the bike again, only to have it stall within about 5 to 10 seconds OR NOT START AT ALL.

 

Generally if you stall when you are hot it is because your idle is too rich.

Shuttiing down when you are hot and waiting 20 minutes may be throwing off the temperature sensors. The engine may still be hot, but the sensor may be cool, so it overly enrichens the mixture. Just a theory....

Someone on the other list suggested tilting the bike to the right, rather than towards the kickstand side, possibly to deal with air in the petcock.

If the problem is vapor lock then one would expect that insulating the fuel filter, pump and lines would fix the problem, but people are suggesting it does not.

 

I am a definite NO on this issue. My bike idles great, with little variation in idle speed due to temperature. My pcIII has cured pinging and popping, I have had only one green light stall and that was after waiting ten minutes to cross the border at Tecate, Mexico. It then fired right up. When my bike is cold it takes about a full two second crank of the starter to tick over. If the bike is warm, it starts instantly. Perhaps those are helpful clues...

[jtucker]

Yeah... the poll has nothing to do with the "stalling at a stop" problem. Just as the poll says, this problem only happens when the bike has been sitting for a little while.

 

He're my experience:

 

After close to 18K miles, my bike did this for the first time. It was a hot day, and I was riding with friends. We stopped for gas, and hung around the gas station for a while. When we left, my bike made it about 100 feet down the road and died. After a while, it was able to start up again.

 

Same thing happened the next day.

 

I recently pulled off the tank to check the routing of the fuel lines, and all looks good. I even took the opportunity to wrap some of the fuel lines in aluminized fiberglass insulation. Unfortunately, the problem still persists, even thought the weather here in the Philadelphia area is not hot anymore!

 

I think there may be a few different problems causing the same symptoms. At first, I thought I was experiencing the fuel vaporization problem, but now I'm beginning to think it is a mechanical problem in my case. Specifically, I'm thinking it may be a problem with the electric petcock, although I haven't been able to verify yet.

 

All I know is that in the first year and half of riding this bike, I never had an issue, but now it is a common occurance. Fuel filter was replaced in June, but I may replace it again just to rule that out as a cause.

 

What really upsets me is that autumn is my favorite season of the year, and as a result of this problem, I am unable to enjoy it because I can't trust the bike to take me any farther than wherever I can get on one tank of gas - or, to put that another way, I'm afraid to stop long enough to put gas in, because there is a possibility that the bike won't start up again for about an hour. Frustrating.

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[dlaing]

Best of luck fixing the problem.

Now is a great time to ride.

Here are a few fairly obvious diagnostic questions:

Have you noticed if the fuel pump goes on when the problem occurs? ie. turn the ignition on and you hear relays clicking and the fuel pump start up.

Have you tried pulling a spark plug and checking for spark? (note that with electronic ignitions you should be sure to ground the spark plug or you may toast your ECU when the ignition is on.)

Played with the kickstand to see if maybe it is shorting. If it is shorting the engine should die quickly, rather than sputter like a fuel mixture problem.

Played with the kill switch by the throttle to see if it is shorting.

If either of those are shorting, the fuel pump should stop too. You probably can't hear the fuel pump stop, but you should hear it start if try to start again.

Put in new spark plugs.

Perhaps you should order the manual petcock asap. I know it should be warranted if it is the problem. But it may be more important to be gone with the problem now.

[Janusz]

As I mentioned in other thread my bike runs perfectly when under way always but nevertheless after a god run and stopped for a short break it will stall on occasion after start up. But then fires right away on a second try - never failed that.

 

All my emission canisters were removed when new together with rubber hoses and valves and all that garbage on the first day of ownership after I noticed a strong vacuum build up in the tank.

[jtucker]

Here are a few fairly obvious diagnostic questions:

Have you noticed if the fuel pump goes on when the problem occurs? ie. turn the ignition on and you hear relays clicking and the fuel pump start up.

Have you tried pulling a spark plug and checking for spark? (note that with electronic ignitions you should be sure to ground the spark plug or you may toast your ECU when the ignition is on.)

Played with the kickstand to see if maybe it is shorting. If it is shorting the engine should die quickly, rather than sputter like a fuel mixture problem.

Played with the kill switch by the throttle to see if it is shorting.

If either of those are shorting, the fuel pump should stop too. You probably can't hear the fuel pump stop, but you should hear it start if try to start again.

Put in new spark plugs.

Perhaps you should order the manual petcock asap. I know it should be warranted if it is the problem. But it may be more important to be gone with the problem now.

The fuel pump does run. ***see note at bottom.

There is spark.

Not the kickstand - the bike does start, but it will die within about 10 seconds.

Ditto the kill switch.

 

**NOTE: When the bike starts, I can hear the fuel pump running. However, I can hear the pitch of the pump raising, as if it is experiencing a change in pressure or resistance. After the pitch rises, the bike will soon sputter and die.

 

I have already put in my order for a manual petcock. I want to replace the electric one regardless of whether or not it has anything to do with this problem. I just don't like the idea of an electric petcock.

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[jrt]

You could add some pigtails to the electric petcock, and activate it with a battery (or the bike's battery). It's not a manual petcock, but it would test whether they are working correctly.

 

 

Cheers,

Jason

[callison]

It would appear that there are several different culprits masquerading as the same problem.

1. vapor lock

2. faulty electrical petcocks

3. tank suck

4. EFI mapping

5. an electrical problem

 

For sure, the early V11 Sports had/have the vapor lock problem (this is probably the one that gets you after the bike is warm and has been sitting not running for a while). MG relocated the fuel pump a bit into the V11 production because of this. For 2003, they've put the fuel pump in the tank. On the V11 predecessor, the Sport 1100i (a bike whose EFI problems make anything the V11 throws at you seem paltry), the fuel pump was located up front where the V11 has the oil cooler. Never a problem with vapor lock in that location (and the oil cooler was mounted in a weird location but a least the brackets have never broken on one of those...).

 

5 is a gotcha. I've had this happen on my Sport 1100i, it has happened to other EFI Guzzis and I'll point it out as something that can and does happen and seems like something else entirely. The EFI Guzzis have a single in-line electrical connector between the power relay and the ECU. Sometimes, the connector is just a tad corroded, loose, nasty-minded or whatever, and it causes problems. Mine failed on the freeway in a monsoon class rain (on the Sport 1100i) resulting in a two mile push up hill and down to an offramp. A day later the bike ran fine. Two days later it did it again. Only a mile from home this time, and no rain. Three days of ripping into the wire harness led me to the connector. Although connected and voltage wise, reading okay, there was just enough corrosion resistance (4 years and 48,000 miles) that the connector couldn't pass enough current to activate the power relay and the bike would stop running. It was an intermittent problem, vibration, temperature, time of day, the tide - somthing would trigger it and I would go nuts trying to figure it out. And it does happen to other Guzzis with far fewer miles, so I suppose that it would be worth finding it and making sure that the connector is seated cleanly. At http://home.pacbell.net/guzzi007/schematic.../V11_Wiring.gif it is the #57 bullet back in the EFI wiring. I don't know where it is on the V11 Sport as I haven't had a problem yet, I don't want to fiddle with that wiring, and, ahem, I can't get my tailpiece off (stuck bolt). On the Sport 1100i, it is buried in the wiring directly below the relay and wrapped in electrical tape or heat shrink. Not at all an obvious connector or something to check. I suspect that it is a spot for factory techs to override the electrical system to test the ECU. Who knows. I do know that it can give problems.

 

As for the poll, I thought it was too specific to the one problem to be a useful indication of what percentage of owners were experiencing which particular problem. If you were to poll all of the MG EFI bike owners however, most of the EFI problems would be associated with the sport models, the worst offenders would be the 96-98 variants, and those specific model problems would skew the poll results remarkably. But for the V11 Sports there are specific problems and it is a current production model with changes occuring on a regular basis at the factory to improve the product. What I suspect most of us would like know is: What are those changes? And can we get them for our bikes as either a warrantee retro-fit or at least an upgrade kit?

[callison]

Hey Jason, I notice you have a 00 V11. You probably should see if the dealer has re-located (or will) the fuel pump, I believe that it was a factory service bulletin, but you have to ask for it.

 

Also, I will be in your area at the LISA '02, 16th Systems Administration Conference, November 3-8, 2002, Philadelphia Marriott. I will be at the Marriott and would enjoy shooting the breeze about Guzzis if you want to look me up. I'll be there Saturday night through Friday morning.

[jtucker]

As for the poll, I thought it was too specific to the one problem to be a useful indication of what percentage of owners were experiencing which particular problem.

Actually, I tried to make the poll as unspecific as I could. The reason being that a number of folks that are experiencing the problme, have no idea what's causing it (like myself). Secondly, I made the poll as simplistic as I could because people are generally lazy, and if it takes them more than 5 seconds to read/answer anything, they just ingnore it! :-)

 

I certainly agree that the poll could have been better, more detailed, but that defeats the purpose of my "quick" poll. I don't plan on writing a research report on the results... I was just curous how many people's bikes fail to run after they've sat for a brief period. Pretty simple... etiher you have a problem that resembles that, or you don't.

 

__Jason

00 M900Dark

00 V11 Sport

[callison]

The poll wery succinct, especially for the 2000 models. I wasn't trying to put down your poll, I didn't notice until later that you have an early Sport. The MGNOC list was rife with the vapor lock issue about 1 year and a half ago. But there is that (supposed) service bulletin about re-locating the fuel pump for the early V11's. It would be nice if MG was more forthcoming about the problem by notifiying the owner as well instead of just the dealer. Kind of like the "X-FIles", "The truth is out there". Now if MG would only send us notification...