Dead Goose - No Juice

[Guest ratchethack]

Hey, I think I'm out of the woods!

 

OK, so I get out my DMM, Carl's schematic, my probes and alligator-clip jumpers, and I'm READY to go to town. I'm gonna find where has holed-up in my Guzzi, and ride his @$$ out of town... :!:

 

Then I had a thought from 30-some years ago, learned at the school of hard knocks presided over by the infamous Dr. "Sparky" Lucas, Prince of Darkness, who set down the rules of keeping the BSA A65 Thunderbolt (and every British motorcycle I ever heard of back then) on the road: "Start off with and stick with Logic, and go after the simple & easy stuff first."

 

So before putting the first probe to connector, I says to myself, "Has the fuse blown WITHOUT the GEI START relay in place?" Answer: "I just put it in last week, Hmmm... No." Then I says to myself, "Has the fuse blown WITH the GEI START relay installed?" Answer: "Yes, and ONLY when the GEI was installed."

 

So I put the generic V23074 Tyco relay back in the START relay socket. Dash lights and fuel pump come on, no prob. Repeat 3X. She fires right up. I ride 60 miles making sure to start & stop the engine about 10X. Problem evidently solved.

 

Conclusion: My 2000 V11 Sport is not compatible with this GEI relay in the START socket. Now I'm not saying that GEI relays are bad. What I am saying is that THIS GEI relay blows #4 fuse on my bike.

 

Somewhere in or around the thread at http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...&hl=relay&st=15 I decided to order the GEI to use it as a more "forgiving" (higher amperage rating) alternative, with the idea that I'd use the existing Tyco relay as a spare in my on-board toolkit. The GEI seems to take awhile to blow the fuse, and looking at Carl's schematic, I can see where fuse #4 and the START relay are associated. As to the electro-physics involved, I happily defer analysis to those with any real training and skill with the travel habits of electrons.

 

Anyone else have any problems with the GEI (P/N AR4-012-A21S) relay in the START socket? BTW - It's rated at 25A and 14v.

 

Thanks & Regards,

 

Ratchethack

[Guest ratchethack]

But wait - THERE'S MORE!

 

In today's mail, Designtech has sent me GEI P/N AR4-012-C11. Evidently they've discovered that they sent me the WRONG PART (AR4-012-A21S)!

 

But do I dare to run it after my friggin' ordeal?

 

Gotta give Designtech credit for so rapidly acting in good faith.

 

OK - it's someone ELSE'S turn to entertain now.

 

Ratchethack

[Guest davidb]

Before you try to find a wire short, it is probably something inline on the key switch. Those are (according to my schematic) the kick stand switch, the kick stand relay,the ecu relay, and the starter relay. the others on the key switch are protected by other fuses that are not blowing so you can forget those.

[Guest davidb]

oops, I posted before too late. Now if you want to fix my Main Seal....

[dlaing]

Yah, that would make sense that the A21S relay would cause it to blow.

What happens is that because it is a four pin, rather than a five pin relay, it does not kill the headlight, etc. when you hit the starter.

(It was a four pin, right?)

Anyway, you should be safe to use the GEI P/N AR4-012-C11.

For me, it has been a more reliable relay than the Bosch.

My headlight and tach would cut out after a few hundred miles on the Bosch.

But I still have many miles of testing to go before I can say it is the perfect solution.

[dlaing]

I take that back!

If there is no fifth pin, it should not even get power to the headlight, etc.

[dlaing]

But then why would that cause the fuse to blow?

[callison]

No fifth pin does indeed mean that the bike won't work. The "local" dealer just repaired a bike in my area and while he had the bike, he "upgraded" the relays - and used all four pinners. So I spent part of my day with schematics and on the phone until the Ducati dealer the bike got dumped on discovered the incorrect relay. But not until all of the wiring had been tested. I didn't even think of it, but I'll guarantee that I won't overlook that particular symptom again. As to blowing the fuse, well, it is possible that the new relay has the diode protection and if the Guzzi is wired backwards (and why would that surprise us?) from the accepted norm, than the fuse would blow immediately upon activation.

[Guest ratchethack]

The A21S 4-pin blows #4 fuse intermittently. The C-11 5-pin (now installed) works like a champ.

 

Thanks again, Guys.

[jrt]

And I got this note off the MG list on Yahoo. Dan Prunske is the relay man. So...does your wrong part have a diode? (symbol looks like an arrow --> but the arrowhead is |> filled

 

Message: 1

  Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 14:02:34 -0500

  From: Dan Prunuske

Subject: Relay Caution

 

If you are scouting around for replacement relays for your late model Guzzi

(at least 94 and up) be careful! Do NOT install relays with an internal

protective diode. Such relays expect that coil terminal 86 will be positive

and 85 will be negative. Guzzi, in its infinite wisdom, has terminal 86

grounded on some relays on some bikes, notably the headlight and starter

relays on at least the 99-04 Sports, and perhaps others. Installing a relay

with a diode will cause a dead short and blow fuses. Relays with an

internal protective resistor are fine and recommended.

 

More info is available at http://www.dpguzzi.com

 

Cheers,

    Dan

[Guest ratchethack]

Jason, thanks for your follow-up on this. The GEI 4-pin A21S relay (the wrong one) does have an internal diode and requires (by my read of the schematic on the relay) that pin #86 be positive and pin #85 be negative. I'm gaining some real clarity on this now... Thanks.

 

Ever notice that there's nothing quite like an electrical problem brought about by your own diligent attempt at pre-emptive maintenance?

 

Think I'll go back to the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" policy for awhile...

[Guest Bruce]

The acid test here is if you put the questionable relay back in can you recreate the problem. That way you know for sure that you've fixed it. I don't know if this would put any other expensive parts at risk so check that out first.

 

We manufacture high performance RF devices so unusual and intermitent problems are the norm. This is how we try to veryify if we have in fact solved the root problem.

[Guest ratchethack]

"The acid test here is if you put the questionable relay back in can you recreate the problem."

 

Yeah, that occurred to me, Bruce. And I'm tempted, especially now that I've got a boatload of extra fuses around.

 

But I'm a little goosey (so to speak) after this unexpected excursion into electronic Purgatory, and I don't want to tempt fate. Blowing a fuse intentionally or otherwise can stress wiring and marginal components and we all know that Guzzi electrics are, well - you know...

 

Per prev. post, for now I'm sticking with, "If it ain't broke, don't mess with it."

 

Thanks for the heads-up thinking, though.

[jrt]

But if you decide to try it, just use a 1/2 Amp fuse or so.

 

Cool- I'll send a note to Dan thanking him for his message.

J

[dlaing]

I just re-read GEI's specs and sure enough a 2 after the second A in AR4-012 -A21S indicates a diode.

While a 1 after C in AR4-012-C11 indicates a resistor.

FWIW I believe the AR4 means automotive relay series four.

The 012 indicates 12 Volt.

the second A indicates SPST (four pin) and the C indicates SPDT (five pin)

The last number( a 1) indicates the terminal spade size, 4.8mm.

The S indicates sealed.

 

And checking the 2000 diagram, the fifth pin missing would cause the headlight, etc. to be without electricity

And yes, it looks like all(If I read the diagram correctly???) the relays have polarity in the reverse of what Dan said would be needed to work with diode relays.