Shift Return Spring Failure Poll

[Bill Hagan]

"God" Springs,springs,springs. Doesn't anyone haven't anything else to talk about? **** "Cheers"    Roadslayer"

My Ballabio has c.10K now, after having the "spring thing" event at c. 6.5K

 

Looking back on it, I had warning signals, lots of 'em, but I didn't know what they meant.

 

So, when I feel the no-mistake-about-it failure to drop -- even once -- when I upshift, that side plate's coming off and another spring's going in.

 

So far, tho, all is well. [no jinx, bento, no jinx.]

[bento]

so bill, what are signs to look for?

[Guest friz]

8500 on scura 8800 on lemans no problem yet!!!!!!

[Bill Hagan]

so bill, what are signs to look for?

My apologies … twice.

 

First, I was not especially clear when I said I had prior warning.

 

Second, I thought I responded yesterday.

 

Anyway, I have about 10K on my Ballabio now (not awesome, but not bad for a year, especially when I had to share its miles with the EV). The spring failed—as in broke and left me stranded 500 miles and $550 from home—at, as I recall, about 6.5K.

 

At some point well before that—and I'll just take a SWAG and say c.4K—I began to have difficulty making upshifts now and then. This was more than the occasional missed shift (I hope) we all make, but, instead, I would find, as I attempted to toe up the lever, that it moved up, but nothing happened, i.e., the gear had not dropped internally (or whatever it does internally!) to be ready for the shift.

 

I attributed (and even posted about) this as a "new boot" thing, as I had just switched from worn-out Alpinstars to Teknics. The latter were much stiffer, and I thought it was simply that I was not dropping my toe after shifts. Wrong.

 

My point is that if you are lucky enough to get these advance signs, as described above, assume you are about to join the ranks of the undone by a cheap spring. Carry belfastguzzi's step-by-step instructions, an extra spring, and the right tools with you if you take any trips well away from home base or a dealer. I do.

[bento]

ahh hah, thank you. i'll have to watch for that.

 

am i to assume that the spring just breaks, or were there just a bad lot of them made?

[belfastguzzi]

am i to assume that the spring just breaks, or were there just a bad lot of them made?

haven't you been following the copious correspondence, Bento!

 

Choose from:

 

A - we have been trying to gather information in order to determine the answer to this very question

 

B - the answer is well known, but we're not telling you

 

and perhaps there is a third –

 

C - Guzzi know but aren't telling any of us

[belfastguzzi]

So, when I feel the no-mistake-about-it failure to drop -- even once -- when I upshift, that side plate's coming off and another spring's going in.

Hey, Bill, you're what Mr. President Bush calls a 'stand-up-kinda-guy'!

 

No messin' about, just do it (whether right or wrong)

 

I'm just wondering if those were signs, or whether it might have been just a new big boot thing? Or you needed the benefit of a gearbox oil change? Did the feel of the up-shifts change as soon as the new spring went in, boots or no boots? You would have had a gear oil change at the same time as the spring went in of course.

 

The thing is that the spring is stressed on the down shifts, rather than the upshifts (as I remember it).

 

I'm trying to picture the bits and pieces of gubbinsmahoobie in my weary mind. Someone whose brain is clearer at the moment might have a better observation on this. I'm not convinced that there would be a long period of poor changes, especially on the upshift, due to the spring working itself towards breaking point.

 

I know your boss was found to be 15mm, surprisingly and disappointingly. Was there any information on the state of the shift plate along the edge where the spring hook locates?

[Baldini]

Both times mine went, I had a couple of bad shifts then it broke - no real prior warning. But maybe i'm just very insensitive...

 

KB

[belfastguzzi]

I think that I had difficult shifts IMMEDIATELY before it broke and I have a feeling that it was downshifts that were problematic. It's not great as far as scientific evidence is concerned.

[Bill Hagan]

So, when I feel the no-mistake-about-it failure to drop -- even once -- when I upshift, that side plate's coming off and another spring's going in.

Hey, Bill, you're what Mr. President Bush calls a 'stand-up-kinda-guy'!

 

No messin' about, just do it (whether right or wrong)

 

I'm just wondering if those were signs, or whether it might have been just a new big boot thing? Or you needed the benefit of a gearbox oil change? Did the feel of the up-shifts change as soon as the new spring went in, boots or no boots? You would have had a gear oil change at the same time as the spring went in of course.

 

The thing is that the spring is stressed on the down shifts, rather than the upshifts (as I remember it).

 

I'm trying to picture the bits and pieces of gubbinsmahoobie in my weary mind. Someone whose brain is clearer at the moment might have a better observation on this. I'm not convinced that there would be a long period of poor changes, especially on the upshift, due to the spring working itself towards breaking point.

 

I know your boss was found to be 15mm, surprisingly and disappointingly. Was there any information on the state of the shift plate along the edge where the spring hook locates?

First, I doubt if KB (Baldini) has insensitive toes or that mine are terrifically tactile

 

And, as for "boots or no boots," I never tried shifting barefooted.

 

I plead guilty to your political metaphor, too. But, in this instance, my vivid memories of looking at my Ballabio thru the rearview mirrors of an (empty) U-Haul truck, towing a trailer with said Guzzi mounted in it, for 500 miles, account for my Nike approach to things.

 

As for signs, you make a point about the gear oil change, but, to the extent I understand such things at all (a dangerous supposition for any reader here!), I have never--but for the phenomenom of the "undropped" gear or whatever-- experienced any but the smoothest of shifting. While, yes, the gearbox oil was changed out at least when spring was replaced (and, possibly at first maintenance), "feel" has never varied. Compared to my EV, at least, it's always been nigh on to Nipponese snick, snick, snick.

 

As for "Did the feel of the up-shifts change as soon as the new spring went in," Yes. Decidedly yes. Have not, in 3K miles since, had more than two +/- instances of "Shix, where did 4th (or whichever) go?" And, those two or so exceptions were my own sloppy shifting.

 

I hear you re "The thing is that the spring is stressed on the down shifts, rather than the upshifts (as I remember it)." I can only tell you that my own problem was with upshifts only and, indeed, when it failed, I was going from 2d to 3d. That would not seem to me, i.e., my ever-valuable-in-such-cases liberal-arts mind , inconsistent with the stress being downshifts, as the the last down shift may well have caused the break, with the discovery happening with the next upshift. I can recall quite clearly (tho I can't find here or at wildguzzi, my posts about thinking it was the boots) the sensation of up shifting into, e.g., 2d, then to find, as I attempted 3d, to feel "give," not engagement. That hasn't happened since.

 

I know your boss was found to be 15mm [so the dealer said], but I did not ask (and doubt if these folks noted (whether there or not) anything about the state of the shift plate. They did say they saw nothing whatever extraordinary except for the broken spring.

 

BTW, I have that item, and have not sent it off to whomever it was who said they 'd study it. I have tried to take useful photos, but am either too inept with my camera or it's just not up to the task of showing such close-up detail.

 

"I'm not convinced that there would be a long period of poor changes, especially on the upshift, due to the spring working itself towards breaking point." Understand your point, and am similarly befogged. Not sure there is a Nobel in this for you, but I'll be in Oslo for the ceremony if you break the code in this.

 

I am confident we'll have the answer someday. In the meantime, I carry your instructions, etc., as if a relic of the True Cross.

[al_roethlisberger]

BTW, my spring died whilst the forum was down, so here's the whole story on Wildguzzi:

 

http://www.wildguzzi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7797

 

al

[P3GA]

My spring went a few weeks back @ 7600 miles; after obtaining one of the Oklahoma springs, I was able to start the job. After far too many interruptions, I just bolted her up & me's think I screwed the pooch bigtime.

 

I now have first, neutral, and second gear. Try to shift from second to third & it's like I've hit the top of the box - imagine trying to shift from sixth to an imaginary seventh & you'll know what I mean. Before reassembling, I cycled the mechanism to neutral, & adjusted the dogs equally. Or so I thought.

 

The neutral light is now on all the time. Considering it rarely came on before, guess I got that problem solved! (?)

 

Consistent with many others, the boss measured 16mm +.

 

The bottom 3 bolts are a royal pain, I'd love to replace them with hex head bolts (since I think I'll be opening her up again). Anyone know what size these are?

 

Help, or at the very least, please send beer.

 

Phil

Atlanta GA

'02 Le Mans

[al_roethlisberger]

...yeah, it sounds like you may have done one or both of the following:

 

1) You are a "tooth" or two off on the selector wheels. It's easy to do. I had marked mine with a marker, but still ended up being one tooth off on the first reassembly. It was visually apparent by watching the neutral switch pin drop into(or slightly miss in this case) its dimple

 

2) As you suspect, you may have missed engaging one(or more) of the selector forks into the slot on the wheels. I worried about this myself, as it seemed to be something of a "crap shoot" to get them to all line up. But it seems mine did, even though I bumped one and had to guess where it was from memory. Maybe there's a trick to this portion of the reassembly, but I don't remember anything mentioned

 

Well, I wouldn't worry too much about it though. Unfortunately you will have to take it back apart, but I doubt you've hurt anything.

 

al

[Guest lowgloss]

My spring went out at about 700 miles

2003 V11 purchased 7/04

I got to drive the last 30 miles home in 2nd gear while still keeping the RPM's down. Took all the self control I had not to peg the motor and leave the thing dead on the side of the road (at least this time it would be my fault).

But I should be grateful for the 24/7 roadside assistance as the fine folks at Guzzi customer service reminded me.

Shame the dealer is further away than they will reimburse me for.

 

FortunatelyI had just downloaded the instructions the day the board went down.

Sorry didn't check the boss size.

[Baldini]

...seemed to be something of a "crap shoot" to get them to all line up.  But it seems mine did, even though I bumped one and had to guess where it was from memory.  Maybe there's a trick to this portion of the reassembly...

 

All 4 sliding sleeves that locate the selector forks should be positioned equidistant on their shafts from the gears on either side. The spaces on either side should be the same. Pegs on selector fork ends appear as four corners of a square. This is Neutral in the box. Check wheel spins freely.

 

I have asked Jaap to post a picture. It shows the selector wheels aligned & in the neutral position. As Al says, check neutral pin is in detente behind top wheel. If wheels are not already marked - it's worth doing.

 

KB