MotoGP

[p6x]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

But if he doesn't win it this year he will have a shot next year, and the year after that

Philosophically, I would agree with you.

Now, I do not think Aprilia has a championship winning package. We have seen with the actual pilots, they still have a lot of technical issues, which makes the bike unreliable.

We do not know how quickly Martin will master his new mount.

He will have two years only put his imprint into the championship, since in 2027, they have that major technical shuffle.

He took a gamble with Aprilia, we will see if it pays. This is why I am hoping he will get the championship this year, and thus, not need to rely on Aprilia in 2025.

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

They kinda look like idiots, especially the way they shafted Martin when Marc changed his mind.

It's all about money! Domenicali said that he understands that other manufacturers are unhappy with the melodrama, but at present, Ducati is the team to beat. Ducati will probably gloat as Marquez picked them up to end his career. Whatever downside to their decision (losing Martin), it is still a winning move. 

I do not know if it is because of their success in MotoGP, but Ducati has improved all their selling figures worldwide year-on-year. With Marquez onboard, it is going to be another boost.

Ducati shenanigans aside, I am more interested in Acosta's progression. To me, he seems the guy to root for. Since his arrival, he has made the factory team play second fiddle. He has got that incredible riding style, his body completely outside the bike in corners.

Let's not forget that Joe Roberts won at the Mugello, it would be great to have him in Trackhouse next year too.

[GuzziMoto]

In my opinion, if Aleix Espargaro can run at the front and even win on the Aprilia a top level rider can certainly win the title on it. They do occasionally have reliability issues, but not to often. And I expect that will get better over time. If Martin can find the right set up balance I think he is in contention for the title next year. The Aprilia seems like an easier bike to adapt to then, say, the KTM / GasGas. It handles well and seems to do exactly what you tell it to do with minimal quirks you have to adapt to.

I agree, Pedro Acosta is going to be one to watch. Between him and Bastianini on KTMs / GasGas, as well as Martin on Aprilia I suspect Ducati will not be so dominant next year. Add to that the chaos in the factory Ducati team after adding Marc and it should be fun to watch.

I hope Joe Roberts is able to win the Moto2 title, he is riding better then he ever has now that Moto2 runs Pirelli tires. He really seems to gel with the softer construction Pirelli's. I am not sure he is ready to move up yet, but time will tell. If he does move up I hope he adapts better then he first did after joining the Moto2 class. I am not sure the new Pirelli's in Moto2 are comparable to the Michelins in MotoGP, I get the impression the Michelins are of a harder construction vs the soft construction Pirelli's in Moto2. He is on his 7th full season in Moto2 and is only now starting to show talent. How much of that is the tire switch and how much is him, I don't know. But I can't see him getting 7 seasons in MotoGP to figure it out. How he got 7 seasons in Moto2 I don't know. But he did, and he is finally doing well. Go Joe.

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, p6x said:

Philosophically, I would agree with you.

Now, I do not think Aprilia has a championship winning package. We have seen with the actual pilots, they still have a lot of technical issues, which makes the bike unreliable.

We do not know how quickly Martin will master his new mount.

He will have two years only put his imprint into the championship, since in 2027, they have that major technical shuffle.

He took a gamble with Aprilia, we will see if it pays. This is why I am hoping he will get the championship this year, and thus, not need to rely on Aprilia in 2025.

It's all about money! Domenicali said that he understands that other manufacturers are unhappy with the melodrama, but at present, Ducati is the team to beat. Ducati will probably gloat as Marquez picked them up to end his career. Whatever downside to their decision (losing Martin), it is still a winning move. 

I do not know if it is because of their success in MotoGP, but Ducati has improved all their selling figures worldwide year-on-year. With Marquez onboard, it is going to be another boost.

Ducati shenanigans aside, I am more interested in Acosta's progression. To me, he seems the guy to root for. Since his arrival, he has made the factory team play second fiddle. He has got that incredible riding style, his body completely outside the bike in corners.

Let's not forget that Joe Roberts won at the Mugello, it would be great to have him in Trackhouse next year too.

His style reminds me of Kevin Schwantz quite a lot. Watch him in the heavy braking zones. His line into the corner can sometimes be a metre inside everyone else's line. Schwantz was the same, hit the brakes and point the bike straight at the apex and still somehow be able to get it turned without running wide. Zero classic race line here. He is also a bellwether for a Motogp team. Too many teams hire older riders who get to the point where their riding style is set in concrete and they then expect the team/factory to find all the solutions with design and engineering. A young rookie just adapts and rides what he's given and often makes the old riders look silly. Honda need to hire a young rookie.

Having said all that you won't really know what Acostas real potential is until he has a factory seat next year and the expectation comes into play. At the moment he's not expected to be a winner but in the factory team that will be different. Some deal with this and some don't. The same as some deal with their first big/serious injury and bounce back and some are never the same rider again post injury. Time will tell.

 

Phil     

[Pressureangle]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

His style reminds me of Kevin Schwantz quite a lot. Watch him in the heavy braking zones. His line into the corner can sometimes be a metre inside everyone else's line. Schwantz was the same, hit the brakes and point the bike straight at the apex and still somehow be able to get it turned without running wide. Zero classic race line here. He is also a bellwether for a Motogp team. Too many teams hire older riders who get to the point where their riding style is set in concrete and they then expect the team/factory to find all the solutions with design and engineering. A young rookie just adapts and rides what he's given and often makes the old riders look silly. Honda need to hire a young rookie.

Having said all that you won't really know what Acostas real potential is until he has a factory seat next year and the expectation comes into play. At the moment he's not expected to be a winner but in the factory team that will be different. Some deal with this and some don't. The same as some deal with their first big/serious injury and bounce back and some are never the same rider again post injury. Time will tell.

 

Phil     

I watched the Laguna Seca GP in 1988, had the good fortune to have a good view of turns 3 & 4. Schwanz had time through that section on everyone, including Wayne Rainey. He braked late and heavy, and slid the front so heavily it striped the pavement. Then he transitioned off the brake and heavy throttle, the stripe went from front tire to rear within a bike length. He simply changed his heading in the course of a couple bike lengths, both entering and exiting the corners tighter and faster than everyone else. That was the weekend I knew I was never going to be better than a club racer.

[p6x]

After the Martin/Marquez epic ending, some of the media present in Catalunya in Barcelone offered some clarification of what happened behind the scene.

Following the Sunday race, Jorge Martin was seen glowing during the interviews while Marquez had a stern look. Allegedly, Ducati had told Martin that he was going to be the "chosen" one for the factory seat.

At this point in time, remember that Ducati was all poised to make the official announcement the week after, the Thursday prior to the Mugello Grand-Prix. However, Ducati came back on it, stating they had never said they were going to make that announcement then. This is because they had assumed Marquez was going to be accepting a move to Pramac. This is when Marquez clarified that for him, Pramac was not an option.

Obviously, he had been informed by Ducati of the plan, and MM93 threw a spanner in the works.

I am not a big fan of MM93, but I can't blame him for using his aura to get the run around Martin. He is going to be 32 next year, so it is his last shot at getting that last title or better, to equal or surpass VR46.

Some pundits are of the opinion that it threw Martin in overdrive at the Mugello, learning that, after all, he was going to be sacrificed for the greater good.

Such is life!

Marquez seriously offended Paolo Campinoti, discarding Pramac as a valid option. As a result, the entire Pramac team is going to do all in their power to assist Jorge Martin to win the title this year.

This brings out a question. Will Ducati drop its efforts with Martin to win 2024 given that he is going to the competition? will Ducati provide Marquez with additional assistance in 2024, to play go between Bagnaia and Martin?

First, it is blatantly obvious that Ducati wants the factory team to win;

Second, they have a contract with Pramac, which I am certain stipulates that bikes in both garages should be identical in terms of specs.

Third, Marc Marquez is on a GP23. The rules prevent him to have a GP24 upgrade. He will run that year model all the way to the end.

But we know there are ways to limit assistance without breaking contract rules.

 

[GuzziMoto]

It is a mess. And time will tell if Ducati made the right decision or the wrong decision. Clearly it was Marc driving this train and calling the shots. Which I think does not bode well for how this will pan out. Letting one of your racers run the show, especially a racer who is in it only for himself (Marc cares not for the Ducati brand), seems like a bad idea.

On top of what you said, not only did they drive Martin to Aprilia with this choice but they may have driven Pramac to Yamaha. It is not official at all, but Simon Crafer has suggested that Pramac may be leaving the Ducati fold after being offended so severely by how this happened. Not only did Marc Marquez directly insult them, but if they continue with Ducati they will have to take Fermín Aldeguer for Ducati along side whatever scraps they can get after expecting to get Marc Marquez. Aldeguer has been less then super impressive this season so far. One win but not looking like he did towards the end of last year. They may have jumped the gun signing him. Time will tell.

Everyone was told back in 2023 when VR46 was trying to get one or two additional current spec Ducati bikes that Pramacs contract not only gave them current spec factory bikes but also prevented other teams from receiving current spec factory bikes. In previous years Ducati was able to move the third and fourth current spec factory bikes to whichever team they wanted to have them. They could even produce a 5th or 6th factory bike. But it seems in 2023 Pramac was able to get a contract signed with Ducati that reserved that to Pramac. Smart. And it would seem if they were to exercise their contract renewal option that would continue into 2025. Of course, now there is the possibility that Pramac will leave the Ducati fold, opening up who can get a current spec Ducati but also being a huge blow to Ducati. Loosing Pramac to Yamaha (or in my opinion to KTM, as I am sure KTM would be glad to have them) would be a huge blow. I don't know why Pramac would go to Yamaha, but I get leaving Ducati after this. I would be talking to KTM as we speak if I were Pramac. KTM could surely provide them with current spec factory bikes.

[p6x]

I agree with you re Aldeguer; he is no Pedro Acosta. Or at least, he is not so far....

Pramac leaving for Yamaha is a possibility, which will only known on July 31st. I am convinced that Campinoti is not going to reveal anything until he is contractually obligated.

If Pramac leaves for Yamaha, who will be the riders? surely Franco Morbidelli is not going back!? where is Enea Bastianini going? I read that Jack Miller may end up where Acosta came from. Joan Mir was also possibly leaving Honda?

What about Joe Roberts? is he coming to Trackhouse?

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, p6x said:

I agree with you re Aldeguer; he is no Pedro Acosta. Or at least, he is not so far....

Pramac leaving for Yamaha is a possibility, which will only known on July 31st. I am convinced that Campinoti is not going to reveal anything until he is contractually obligated.

If Pramac leaves for Yamaha, who will be the riders? surely Franco Morbidelli is not going back!? where is Enea Bastianini going? I read that Jack Miller may end up where Acosta came from. Joan Mir was also possibly leaving Honda?

What about Joe Roberts? is he coming to Trackhouse?

Pramac leave Ducati! Let me tell you my former BIL ran a large automotive accessory company here a few years ago that sponsored the top team in V8 Supercars ( he was also authorising the sponsorship payments )and their #1 goal in sponsoring them was seconds of airtime. They had staff to time the TV airtime they got for their sponsorship dollar. No doubt these days it would include all the social media as well. Will Pramac sign up for a bike/company that presently gets about zero or close to zero air or social media time for their sponsorship dollar at the tail end of the field? I don't think so myself.  

I might tell you a few stories about the cutthroat business of minor sponsors graphics on a race car and it's allocation of prominence and how private race teams pull the wool over the sponsors eyes to get additional funding. One day maybe.

On another MotoGP topic how well has Fabio Quartararo done contractually out of Yamaha. Gets paid way more than any other rider and has a built in excuse riding a Yamaha for lacklustre performances and his worth and reputation remain in tact for the next round of rider musical chairs. I mean how could you refuse that deal. Yamaha and Honda as well really needed to move their managers on years ago.

Phil 

[GuzziMoto]

Fabio and Yamaha are struggling. But with the drastic concessions Yamaha have right now I don't expect them to struggle for long. They are already making steps and are now arguably better then Honda. Yamaha won't be at the back forever. If they aren't near the front next year or the year after I would be surprised. The concessions they have been given are pretty extreme.

But while talk is of Pramac going to Yamaha I would think going to KTM would make more sense. That is a bike that could win the title as it is right now, and just needs the right rider. That is why Ducati so feared Marc leaving Gresini and going to KTM that they were willing to shaft their top two guys.

[LowRyter]

Mav to Tech 3 KTM with the Beast. Binder and Acosta to factory KTM

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/vinales-makes-tech3-ktm-motogp-switch-alongside-bastianini-for-2025/10622885/

 

 

[p6x]

24 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

Mav to Tech 3 KTM with the Beast. Binder and Acosta to factory KTM

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/vinales-makes-tech3-ktm-motogp-switch-alongside-bastianini-for-2025/10622885/

 

 

Jack Miller back to Honda to replace Rins?

GasGas is now replaced by KTM, so Tech 3 will switch to orange too.

Aprilia needs another rider; what about Pramac. Nobody knows if they stay or if they go Yamaha. Where would Aldeguer go then?

 

[audiomick]

49 minutes ago, p6x said:

.. if they stay or if they go

or should that have been in "what are you listening to"?

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, LowRyter said:

Mav to Tech 3 KTM with the Beast. Binder and Acosta to factory KTM

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/vinales-makes-tech3-ktm-motogp-switch-alongside-bastianini-for-2025/10622885/

 

 

Why do teams continue with Vinales. In the last 5 seasons he's had all of 3 wins! The ultimate "soggy Cornflakes" man. Can't get a MotoGp bike off the line in a race to save his life. Why do teams fall for these guys trading on yesterdays performances. He's never even won a MotoGp title for goodness sake. Ten MotoGp wins total since 2015 with best championship result 3rd twice the last with Yamaha 5 years ago. There's a list of stars aligning a mile long for this guy to even podium and yet they keep hiring him. Amazing.

 

Phil

[KINDOY2]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Why do teams continue with Vinales. In the last 5 seasons he's had all of 3 wins! The ultimate "soggy Cornflakes" man. Can't get a MotoGp bike off the line in a race to save his life. Why do teams fall for these guys trading on yesterdays performances. He's never even won a MotoGp title for goodness sake. Ten MotoGp wins total since 2015 with best championship result 3rd twice the last with Yamaha 5 years ago. There's a list of stars aligning a mile long for this guy to even podium and yet they keep hiring him. Amazing.

 

Phil

Agreed but in all fairness Brad Binder isn't exactly lighting the World on fire either..2 wins total in the last 4 seasons that  he has been riding Red Bull MGP.......nice guy..but..... two 1st's in 4 seasons ? ,even his best year he finished 4th in the championships...and something like 10th or 11th in the others

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, KINDOY2 said:

Agreed but in all fairness Brad Binder isn't exactly lighting the World on fire either..2 wins total in the last 4 seasons that  he has been riding Red Bull MGP.......nice guy..but..... two 1st's in 4 seasons ? ,even his best year he finished 4th in the championships...and something like 10th or 11th in the others

I agree. His main excuse though is the KTM isn't exactly the winningest bike and has only been anywhere near one in the last season and a half. Up until the 2023 season they were pretty ordinary to bad. Binder on a Ducati might be another story. 

 

Phil