MotoGP

[GuzziMoto]

14 minutes ago, PJPR01 said:

Here's the conspiracy theory...had they been bunched up all together, Alex would have been the hitman to take out Bagnaia to ensure Marc would win...what's odd here is he did it with a 5 second cushion to Jorge...makes no sense...but maybe Alex thinks he can become Marc by crashing more often.

I am not a conspiracy theory guy. But I have no doubt some people think Alex took out Pecco to help Mark beat Pecco in the points this year (or insert your conspiracy theory here). I don't think Alex or Marc cares if Martin wins the title, but I do think Marc would love to beat Pecco in the points this year. He would rather win the title, but beating Pecco in the points would be almost as good. That said, I think none of that factored into the crash. I think it was simply a matter of Alex being determined to hold on to that third place podium so he could share that podium with his brother. He wanted that so bad he was willing to do anything he could, even if it meant Pecco didn't finish. Unfortunately for him he also didn't finish. No doubt that wasn't part of the plan. But Alex appeared to make no effort to avoid the contact. He was likely focused on not falling down during the contact, but it did not work.

[p6x]

17 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

But I have no doubt some people think Alex took out Pecco to help Mark beat Pecco in the points this year (or insert your conspiracy theory here)

Let's say that Francesco was not in his brightest hour on this one:

-1) he was considerably faster than Alex Marquez at this point in the race, he closed the gap rapidly.

-2) there were six more laps remaining to the race, overtaking in haste would not have made a change: he was too far to come back on Jorge Martin. Third was all he could do. He had time.

-3) Alex clearly made a mistake and ran wide, but did not exit the track. It may have occurred to Francesco that Alex was going to resist?

-4) Alex was third at that time, meaning that he was going to have the chance to celebrate his brother's race win by being on the podium! therefore, my dear Francesco, it is not about respect. It was obvious that Alex was going to fight tooth and nail.

-5) Alex did not know that it was Francesco Bagnaia behind him. Gresini only shows the gap, not the name. For readability.

-6) Francesco assured that Alex knew he was there. Given how they lean outside the bike in the turn, it is not completely certain.

-7) All the pundits share the blame between the two riders. Alex made the mistake of running wide, he should have expected that whoever was behind him would have taken advantage and attempted to overtake.

-8) This was the third collision of that kind for Bagnaia. He is fighting for the Championship while Alex Marquez is not. I think Francesco lacked clairvoyance on this one.

23 points gap to Martin is nothing, considering the win of the two races in a weekend gives you 37, providing you win twice of course.

The collaboration between the Marquez brothers is exemplary. They really are joined at the hip in this.

In any case, Misano will be a test for Bagnaia.

[p6x]

19 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

it was a racing incident but the blame was clearly on Alex. He should have seen Pecco, as Pecco was 90% in front of him (also, his angle going into the corner was such that he should have seen that Pecco was on the racing line and mostly in front of him.

The Italian staff of Moto.it says there should be a new rule introduced. When you lose the line and that gives the opportunity to the rider behind you to attempt a pass, if he gets in front of you before the apex, you need to give him the way.

[LowRyter]

Simple racing accident.  That's it

[GuzziMoto]

1 hour ago, p6x said:

Let's say that Francesco was not in his brightest hour on this one:

-1) he was considerably faster than Alex Marquez at this point in the race, he closed the gap rapidly.

-2) there were six more laps remaining to the race, overtaking in haste would not have made a change: he was too far to come back on Jorge Martin. Third was all he could do. He had time.

-3) Alex clearly made a mistake and ran wide, but did not exit the track. It may have occurred to Francesco that Alex was going to resist?

-4) Alex was third at that time, meaning that he was going to have the chance to celebrate his brother's race win by being on the podium! therefore, my dear Francesco, it is not about respect. It was obvious that Alex was going to fight tooth and nail.

-5) Alex did not know that it was Francesco Bagnaia behind him. Gresini only shows the gap, not the name. For readability.

-6) Francesco assured that Alex knew he was there. Given how they lean outside the bike in the turn, it is not completely certain.

-7) All the pundits share the blame between the two riders. Alex made the mistake of running wide, he should have expected that whoever was behind him would have taken advantage and attempted to overtake.

-8) This was the third collision of that kind for Bagnaia. He is fighting for the Championship while Alex Marquez is not. I think Francesco lacked clairvoyance on this one.

23 points gap to Martin is nothing, considering the win of the two races in a weekend gives you 37, providing you win twice of course.

The collaboration between the Marquez brothers is exemplary. They really are joined at the hip in this.

In any case, Misano will be a test for Bagnaia.

As a racer, if the guy in front of me had run that far off line I would have went by him the same way Pecco did. I really don't know a racer that would not have done the same thing there. He was looking for a chance to make a clean pass on Alex, and when Alex ran wide he had his chance. If he had not went for that it is hard to say if he would have had a better chance on a track that was as one line and slippery as that track was. And if Alex fought as hard as he did after running wide, it seems likely he would have fought just as hard the next chance Pecco had. I see nothing that says it would have been easier if Pecco had waited.

I do agree about Alex riding like he was because he really wanted to be on the podium with his brother for his brothers first win in years. I think it is clear he was either hanging onto that podium or he was crashing. Which is why I don't see how Pecco waiting would have helped, unless Pecco should have accepted fourth. Any pass attempt Pecco made was likely to be met with the same amount of aggression and determination that resulted in this crash. Pecco had beat Alex to the next corner. The corner was Pecco's. Alex threw it in there way too tight and going too fast to make the corner. In hindsight,  perhaps it would have been smarter for Pecco to yield, let Alex throw it into the corner like that, and then go by Alex after he runs wider or throws it down because he wasn't going to make that next corner. But hindsight is a luxury that Pecco did not have in that moment.

Just glad Pecco was not hurt. I am personally rooting for Martin in the title fight, but I would rather they settle the title fight without outside influences. We don't need another championship decided in part by people not involved directly in the title fight. I don't expect others to get out of the two title contenders way, but I don't expect a mid-pack guy like Alex to take out the championship leader in a desperate attempt to stay on the podium. 

I think Alex ran wide and he should have known that Pecco was going to beat him to the next corner. But I am not sure about a rule that says that. I don't think a rule like that would work. It would become a judgement call and I don't like judgement calls. Did he really run wide? Does he have to yield? I do think that some clarity and consistency with regard to one rider hitting another rider would help. But I am not sure a new rule would help.

Edited September 4 by GuzziMoto

[p6x]

On 9/4/2024 at 9:36 AM, GuzziMoto said:

As a racer, if the guy in front of me had run that far off line I would have went by him the same way Pecco did.

There is no doubt in my mind, that absolutely every single one of those guys would have gone for it.

I think what Bagnaia got wrong, was his expectancy that Alex would have caved.

On 9/4/2024 at 9:36 AM, GuzziMoto said:

I see nothing that says it would have been easier if Pecco had waited.

True, excepted that he made up the gap easily with Alex; that did not preclude that he would have been able to overtake; now Alex made that mistake because he was feeling the pressure. Who knows what would have happened.

 

On 9/4/2024 at 9:36 AM, GuzziMoto said:

Just glad Pecco was not hurt.

Apparently, he was/is. Nothing broken, but some contusions. Or this is what he wants us to know.

Also, Francesco issued an official apology to Alex today, after clearly accusing him to have crashed into him on purpose. Alex accepted the excuses, but said what was said is not going to go away.

I do too. He is the underdog in this story. Some riders have no luck, and he is one of them. Marquez just came by at the wrong time.

I don't see Martin having any title chance with the Aprilia next year... they have not gotten it figured out yet. Same for KTM. They are still running behind Ducati.

Next year, it will all about the supreme fight between Bagnaia and Marquez.

[docc]

Having tried to follow this thread is maddening. You fellows throw out so many names. Like you know these people, personally.

When you transition between surnames and first name and team names, it is just impossible to follow.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong, only that it is impossible to decipher from the outer edge without the dedicated immersion . . .

[Gmc28]

1 hour ago, docc said:

Having tried to follow this thread is maddening. You fellows throw out so many names. Like you know these people, personally.

When you transition between surnames and first name and team names, it is just impossible to follow.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong, only that it is impossible to decipher from the outer edge without the dedicated immersion . . .

sounds like you’re trying too hard… just watch the races, and the pre-race commentary, with the sound on 😎

[p6x]

8 hours ago, docc said:

Having tried to follow this thread is maddening. You fellows throw out so many names. Like you know these people, personally.

When you transition between surnames and first name and team names, it is just impossible to follow.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong, only that it is impossible to decipher from the outer edge without the dedicated immersion . . .

I usually use the last name, or I try to. Bagnaia. His first name is Francesco, although he goes by "Pecco" for everyone in the paddock. I don't use Pecco personally, because I am not intimate enough to allow myself to use a sobriquet for him. I can somewhat refer to that, as all my life I have been called P6 or 6. Having strange names that don't pronounce well in other languages is never a perk.

I learned my lesson early, because I had a colleague from Egypt who used a nickname for his wife all the time. I mistakenly thought it was something I should use too, but it turned out it was something that was complimenting a specific part of her anatomy, which of course was not for everyone's privilege. Because the word was in Arabic, I did not know...

[GuzziMoto]

10 hours ago, docc said:

Having tried to follow this thread is maddening. You fellows throw out so many names. Like you know these people, personally.

When you transition between surnames and first name and team names, it is just impossible to follow.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong, only that it is impossible to decipher from the outer edge without the dedicated immersion . . .

Sorry. It can get even worse. In some cases on the AF1 forum people just use initials, like PB for Pecco Bagnia or MM for Marc Marquez. And back in the day when Jorge Lorenzo was still racing he tended to be known as JLo. It makes it easier to type. While P6 can certainly call Pecco Bagnia Francesco, I suspect only his mother calls him that (when she is mad at him). I typically say / type Pecco or Bagnia. But aside from Pecco, everyone else just has a first name and a last name (on the AF1 forum some guys have unofficial nick-names, that can also make it more complicated. Marc Marquez, for example, is "The Joker" among other nick-names). And I usually use last names but sometimes I use first names, usually with people like the two Marquez brothers (because there are two Marquez brothers just saying Marquez doesn't tell you which one).

Honestly, when you know peoples first and last names as a set it isn't as hard to follow. Same as everyday life. I have co-workers that I sometimes refer to by their first name and sometimes by their last name. Do you not do that same? Last names are more formal, but first names are usually shorter. But sometimes there are two Kevins, so using a last name instead can help be more specific. Like say Alex or Marc instead of Marquez since there are two guys in MotoGP with the last name Marquez.

Edited September 6 by GuzziMoto

[p6x]

18 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

Do you not do that same? Last names are more formal,

In some languages, including mine, we have formal sentences and were taught to always refer to people we did not know well using the appropriate formal sentences.

The same does not exist in English.

When I first started to work for US businesses, everyone called everybody by their first names. This was a revelation, and it sounded strange, as in French, you always use Sir followed by the last name. In my culture, when you call someone by his first name, it means something. Or it used to. You would only call your close friends or family by their first names. Someone you work with, you will use the formal way. You would also say "Vous" and not "Tu".

Also in my culture, we kiss on the cheeks the ladies we greet, and we shake hands with the men.

This is something that did not export well here (the kissing the lady). While in Houston, a former female colleague of mine got transferred to my section, and we kissed in the morning... HR said we should not.... lol...

[GuzziMoto]

51 minutes ago, p6x said:

In some languages, including mine, we have formal sentences and were taught to always refer to people we did not know well using the appropriate formal sentences.

The same does not exist in English.

When I first started to work for US businesses, everyone called everybody by their first names. This was a revelation, and it sounded strange, as in French, you always use Sir followed by the last name. In my culture, when you call someone by his first name, it means something. Or it used to. You would only call your close friends or family by their first names. Someone you work with, you will use the formal way. You would also say "Vous" and not "Tu".

Also in my culture, we kiss on the cheeks the ladies we greet, and we shake hands with the men.

This is something that did not export well here (the kissing the lady). While in Houston, a former female colleague of mine got transferred to my section, and we kissed in the morning... HR said we should not.... lol...

Yeah, cultural differences can be huge. And it gets even weirder when cultures merge. For example, normally someone might say "Mr Myers, can you help me with this?" or someone might say "Michael, can you help me with this?". But sometimes the two merge and someone says "Mr Michael, can you help me with this?". Using the formal Mr or Mrs in front of the first name instead of the last name.

I work in the same office as my wife, and we do not kiss often in the office. Kissing in the office may be frowned upon, and someone might not know we are married. "Hello, HR?".

Anyway, in FP1 Jorge Martin was fastest with Marc Marquez second quick. Pol Espargaro, who is doing a wildcard ride was third quick on his developmental KTM. Pecco Bagnia was in eighth, struggling a little with soreness but honestly he isn't the kind of racer who is usually quick out of the gate. He tends to work his speed up more slowly then some.

Edited September 6 by GuzziMoto

[GuzziMoto]

And there you go, Practice 2 (which is timed and counts towards qualifying) has Pecco Bagnia on top with Marc Marquez second and Jorge Martin third. When the pace was upped, Pol Espargaro had nothing, and fell back out of the top 10 (13th). But winning the race is not why Pol is there. Being in the top 10 in Practice 2 gives you a direct spot in Q2, everyone else has to go through Q1 and only the top two in Q1 get to run Q2.

[PJPR01]

Adding to the fun and mirth this thread allows...each of the riders, often have a nickname.

Valentino Rossi - aka The Doctor (Il Dottore)

Fabio Quartararo - El Diablo (The Devil) or El Pascal

Maverick Vinales - Top Gun for obvious reasons

Miguel Oliveira - Einstein (since he likes to stick his tongue out like the original AE)

Marc Marquez - Baby Alien, or as I like to call him the King of COTA (Austin race track), I"m sure others call him Beelzebub or other more derogatory terms too. 

 

Francesco in Italian, Pecco for short is just like Francisco in Spanish, with Paco for short...quite similar

Amongst friends, we call each other by last names as a term of endearment, I see some folks like to call each other by their initials...although that's a bit more of a southern style.

Edited September 6 by PJPR01

[p6x]

Something occurred to me after FP2.

Marc Marquez is in the exact same situation as he was in 2015, when he was in between Jorge Lorenzo and Valentino Rossi chasing the title.

But today's situation is slightly different in that Francesco Bagnaia will be Marc Marquez coequipier next year, and of course, Ducati will be Marc's employer too.

Also, Marc Marquez is not so far away in terms of points since there are two races per race weekend.

Is he going to be "il terzo incomodo"? (odd man out).