MotoGP

[p6x]

Jorge Martin added to the list of his injuries Sunday, including a collapsed lung which is going to impede his quick return to Spain, and compromise his Jerez participation which was initially anticipated as his return to race appointment.

The front tire pressure rule has struck again!

 

Edited April 15 by p6x

[GuzziMoto]

Well, that was the Marc Marquez of earlier this year, the smarter Marc that doesn't ride beyond his limits to make a point. It wasn't the Marc that we saw at COTA. It was a measured and intelligent ride by Marc to take the win. It was not that from his brother, Alex. Although, to be fair, the contact between Marc and Alex was a racing incident that was mainly Marcs fault. And as I understand it Marc said as much. But the way Alex nailed Digi was brutal. Of course, not as brutal as what happened to Jorge Martin. And then, just to remind us how bad the joke is,  a fantastic ride by Vinales was screwed because of a lame rule about tire pressures. That continues to be a bad joke. Vinales was likely robbed of a second place because he managed to get out front in clean air and lead the race for some 5 laps or so. That needs to stop.

This is perhaps the first race where Ducati's decision to sign Marc Marquez actually paid off. This is the first race that Ducati might not have won had they not signed Marc.

[p6x]

2 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

This is perhaps the first race where Ducati's decision to sign Marc Marquez actually paid off. This is the first race that Ducati might not have won had they not signed Marc.

I think a Ducati would have won.

Yes, Marc Marquez was very smart on this one. Bagnaia did pretty well to come back from afar, but this world championship seems to already have its favorite. I am not saying Bagnaia is out of contention, but it seems clear that Marc Marquez has one leg up on just everyone.

If we were expecting Jorge Martin's return to spice it up, we can now forget about it.

As for Maverick Viñales, I am hopeful he will also be competitive in Jerez.

[GuzziMoto]

5 minutes ago, p6x said:

I think a Ducati would have won.

Yes, Marc Marquez was very smart on this one. Bagnaia did pretty well to come back from afar, but this world championship seems to already have its favorite. I am not saying Bagnaia is out of contention, but it seems clear that Marc Marquez has one leg up on just everyone.

If we were expecting Jorge Martin's return to spice it up, we can now forget about it.

As for Maverick Viñales, I am hopeful he will also be competitive in Jerez.

It is hard to say what would have happened if Marc wasn't on a factory Ducati. But this is the first race where it may not have been a Ducati winning if Ducati had not signed Marc. Although it could have played out that Vinales won and then had the win taken from him. That would have been seriously cruel.

Yes, it was an impressive race from Marc, he had the speed but also the racecraft. However, history is shown that things can change pretty quick, sometimes in a single corner.

Vinales has always been a hot or cold racer, some races he shows incredible speed and other races he does not. Sometimes he even shows both in the same race. He really tends to need his ducks to line up to be fast, and he is not that good at lining his ducks up. Look at his results this year prior to this race, 16th, 12th, & 14th. Funny, even though his race was way better this time out after his penalty for the front tire pressure BS he ended up back where he usually is, 14th as I understand it. I would love to see Vinales competitive on a regular basis. But I would not hold my breath. His performance does show that the KTM really isn't that far out, they just need to hit on the right combination of setup. The bike is capable of it, the speed is there. KTM just need to find the right combination of what they have. Currently they are getting that combination wrong, the Michelin tires don't want to work for them (especially the new rear). I have had chatter issue on my front tire, but I have never experienced chatter at the rear. That is bizarre. I hope the coming switch to a different tire manufacturer helps even out the field. The Michelin tire has really become a king maker, with Ducati currently the only manufacturer able to wear that crown. The others are doing what they can with it, but it is always a struggle for them to minimize the issues with the tires. That isn't the best way to have a spec tire series.

[Lucky Phil]

Vinales only performed because his front tyre pressure was illegal. Same as other riders in previous years and have gotten away with it "sometimes" due to the one time only get out of goal card for previous seasons. Thats how stupid MotoGP is getting. Start with slightly lower front tyre pressure and you can go from a mid packer to the rostrum and even win as Bastianini did in Malaysia 2023. Out of the blue win due to front tyre under pressure.

When you see an out of the box performance don't go celebrating until the race pressures have been reviewed. KTM have got a hide whinging about the infringement as well as they gave themselves an unfair and major advantage but were caught out and Vinales penalised as he should have been. same as starting with a bike 10kg under the minimum weight or with a litre or 2 of extra fuel, big advantage. What we now have is F1 on 2 wheels unfortunately. It's all about the technology little to none of which translates into better road bikes. They went down the aero path instead of the electronics path. Aero is pointless on a road bike but electronic suspension and dynamic control is a major leap forward whose developments are slowed down due to being illegal in racing. Meanwhile money is poured into pointless aero which is what causes the overheating and front tyre wear problems. This is what happens when the "business model" considerations overrides the "racing"

Phil

Edited April 16 by Lucky Phil

[Pressureangle]

8 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Vinales only performed because his front tyre pressure was illegal. Same as other riders in previous years and have gotten away with it "sometimes" due to the one time only get out of goal card for previous seasons. Thats how stupid MotoGP is getting. Start with slightly lower front tyre pressure and you can go from a mid packer to the rostrum and even win as Bastianini did in Malaysia 2023. Out of the blue win due to front tyre under pressure.

When you see an out of the box performance don't go celebrating until the race pressures have been reviewed. KTM have got a hide whinging about the infringement as well as they gave themselves an unfair and major advantage but were caught out and Vinales penalised as he should have been. same as starting with a bike 10kg under the minimum weight or with a litre or 2 of extra fuel, big advantage. What we now have is F1 on 2 wheels unfortunately. It's all about the technology little to none of which translates into better road bikes. They went down the aero path instead of the electronics path. Aero is pointless on a road bike but electronic suspension and dynamic control is a major leap forward whose developments are slowed down due to being illegal in racing. Meanwhile money is poured into pointless aero which is what causes the overheating and front tyre wear problems. This is what happens when the "business model" considerations overrides the "racing"

Phil

They've constrained tire pressure...?
I'm not a follower of MGP, but I'm stunned stupid by this. 

[p6x]

35 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

They've constrained tire pressure...?
I'm not a follower of MGP, but I'm stunned stupid by this. 

Michelin set the minimum pressure rule, because if underinflated, the tire may suffer a catastrophic failure that could put the rider's life at risk.

They have since come up with a new tire that no longer has that constraint; however Dorna did not authorize its introduction.

This was a safety measure that was a stop gap while developing a front tire that did not require it.

Everybody agrees that it is plain unacceptable to have race standings established after it has ended. Tech3 said they had not expected Maverick Viñales to race at the front, hence why they had set the pressure too low. Maverick himself said that front tire pressure was not his problem, even if there is a warning on the dash.

Why is Dorna not allowing the front tire?

[GuzziMoto]

As mentioned, they do have minimum pressure, in particular (the one that gets all the attention) is the minimum front tire pressure. Michelin set this minimum, in theory, to stop front tire failures that result from running air pressures too low. It must be said, however, that in the era of Michelin being the spec tire supplier there has not been a tire failure from running too low air pressure in the tire. On the other side of that coin, it turns out that best performance of the Michelin front tire occurs at a pressure below the minimum pressure set by Michelin. That makes no sense. Why would you design a tire that performs best at an air pressure you claim is below safety limits? To further complicate things, whether you are running out in front in clean air or behind another racer has a large impact on how hot your front tire gets, and how hot a tire gets directly affects the air pressure inside that tire (as temp goes up, air pressure goes up). So, racers are left trying to guess what front tire air pressure they need to start the race with to keep their front tire pressure above the minimum set by Michelin for at least 60% of the race. It is a balancing act, too much air pressure and they will be slow. Too little air pressure and they will get a penalty. It is not as simple as set it here or above and you are fine, as your front tire pressure will vary depending on whether you are out front or directly behind someone. This was famously shown recently when Marc Marquez pulled over to let his brother by so he could run directly behind him to bring up his front tire pressure. Once he had done enough of the race with his front tire pressure thus elevated, he passed his brother and ran off in front using a tire with air pressure below the minimum value. The rules are so stupid that what Marc did was perfectly legal. Had Vinales paid better attention to his front tire pressure, they typically have a display on their dash telling them what their front tire pressure is and / or whether it is above the minimum value, he may have avoided leading the laps he led to stay in behind Marc to keep his front tire pressure higher. We don't know the details, because they don't tell us things like how low his pressure was and for how much of the race it was. All we know is that his front tire pressure was below the minimum for more then 40% of the race.

What was messed up the most was, they should know all this real time, but they only announced the penalty for Vinales around two hours after the race, after he already stood on the podium and got his second place trophy. The rule is stupid, but that was incompetence.

[Pressureangle]

I miss the good 'ol days of consequences.

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

They've constrained tire pressure...?
I'm not a follower of MGP, but I'm stunned stupid by this. 

Thats Motogp these days. WSBK is heading there tyre wise though. At the Phillip Island round this year about 3 weeks before the event Pirelli the tyre supplier announced that their tyres wouldn't make the full race distance and both main races would require a mandatory pit stop. This totally ruins the whole meeting turning it into 5 sprint races with confusing minimum pit time requirements and disadvantages riders that can conserve tyres and come on strong at the end of the race. Even the riders after a day of practice were saying they had zero issues with tyre wear. Money, technology and stupid officialdom and manufacturers fearing litigation no matter how remote rule racing these days. 

Edited April 16 by Lucky Phil

[Pressureangle]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

Thats Motogp these days. WSBK is heading there tyre wise though. At the Phillip Island round this year about 3 weeks before the event Pirelli the tyre supplier announced that their tyres wouldn't make the full race distance and both main races would require a mandatory pit stop. This totally ruins the whole meeting turning it into 5 sprint races with confusing minimum pit time requirements and disadvantages riders that can conserve tyres and come on strong at the end of the race. Even the riders after a day of practice were saying they had zero issues with tyre wear. Money, technology and stupid officialdom and manufacturers fearing litigation no matter how remote rule racing these days. 

*Nothing* survives politics.

[p6x]

23 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

there has not been a tire failure from running too low air pressure in the tire

Past performance is never a guarantee of the future. By the way, Michelin had a very difficult experience of tires failure in F1; remember Indianapolis June 19th, 2005?

I don't believe Michelin would have set a minimum required front tire pressure if it was not necessary. They have ran tests to confirm that possibility. Probably extreme tests, but as a company, you certainly don't want to have your name attached to a catastrophic event, again, Indianapolis June 19th, 2005...

Conscious that imposing a minimum tire pressure, and laying down rules to enforce it would never win them any sympathy, they came up with a new tire, that Dorna did not authorize to use.

My unbiased opinion would be, why would you release an imperfect tire in the first place? do it right the first time. Of course, this is probably a simplistic way to look at it. There must have been other factors, maybe time to influence that decision.

Whatever it is, having a rider arriving second, and given a penalty for an insufficient tire pressure is simply ludicrous. We all agree.

I wish they replace that front tire immediately.

Edited April 17 by p6x

[GuzziMoto]

20 minutes ago, p6x said:

Past performance is never a guarantee of the future. By the way, Michelin had a very difficult experience of tires failure in F1; remember Indianapolis June 19th, 2005?

I don't believe Michelin would have set a minimum required front tire pressure if it was not necessary. They have ran tests to confirm that possibility. Probably extreme tests, but as a company, you certainly don't want to have your name attached to a catastrophic event, again, Indianapolis June 19th, 2005...

Conscious that imposing a minimum tire pressure, and laying down rules to enforce it would never win them any sympathy, they came up with a new tire, that Dorna did not authorize to use.

My unbiased opinion would be, why would you release an imperfect tire in the first place? do it right the first time. Of course, this is probably a simplistic way to look at it. There must have been other factors, maybe time to influence that decision.

Whatever it is, having a rider arriving second, and given a penalty for an insufficient tire pressure is simply ludicrous. We all agree.

I wish they replace that front tire immediately.

You are free to have that much faith, that much confidence, in Michelin. I do not share your faith and confidence in Michelin. Without even a sign of impending tire failure I don't see a legitimate justification for the current minimum pressure. F1 tires have nothing in common with MotoGP tires. 

A fundamental issue if you do accept that the minimum pressure limit is justified, is why do their tire perform best at a pressure below what they deem safe. Normally, a tires performance is reduced before it ever gets below what would be considered a safe pressure. For example, when I was racing we would adjust the tire air pressures to get maximum performance out of the tires. At an event down at Roebling Road I mistakenly set the tire air pressure too low. The tires weren't so low they were in danger of failing, but they definitely did not perform well. The tires were sliding around and wearing excessively. That is what you would expect. You would not expect max performance from your tires to occur at a pressure your engineers deem unsafe. I do not except that the minimum pressure rule is justified, but even if you do accept that it makes no sense that the tire works best at a pressure below that supposed safe limit.

As to pushing back the introduction of the new front tire, I am not sure that is on Dorna. Michelin announced the push back of the new front tire claiming they needed more testing. Likely that relates to the fact that they can only beat themselves in a spec tire series. The incentive to push the limits is not there. The only incentive to Michelin in a spec tire series is to not screw themselves, to not have tire issues. Introducing a new front tire that turns out is a problem would make Michelin look bad. Not introducing the new front tire until they are sure it is good would make sense. They have nothing to gain by taking a chance. Personally I would rather they roll out development tires alongside the existing tires, allowing riders to choose which tire they want to run. That would also allow them to actually test the new tires under actual race weekend conditions. I think they only have some 30 minutes of actual testing of the new front tire so far. I can see why they are reluctant to commit.

Edited April 17 by GuzziMoto

[p6x]

On 4/17/2025 at 8:35 AM, GuzziMoto said:

A fundamental issue if you do accept that the minimum pressure limit is justified, is why do their tire perform best at a pressure below what they deem safe.

Opinion about Michelin tires aside, I would have a hard time believing that them, Michelin, would have been able to enforce such a directive without any fact or proof to provide to Dorna to have them endorse the decision.

As I type this, there were some pilot's opinions on Viñales' declassification, and every one of those that expressed their opinion approved the rules have to be enforced.

There are several videos that have reiterated that Michelin came up with a modified design that would have done away with the 1.8 bars minimum limit for 60% of the race, unfortunately, Dorna has not accepted to have the new tire introduced, for undisclosed reasons, upon which we can only speculate.

If excepted for the Maverick incident, those rules have been fairly followed in the field, we will remember that Marc Marquez used his brother to reheat is front tire.

I don't know if that new front tire will ever be used, given that Pirelli is taking over in 2027.

Anyhow, the front tire pressure is unlikely to change the pecking order of 2025 and 2026. Tech3 admitted they set the front tire pressure thinking Maverick Viñales would remain in the middle of the pack, which is frustrating for everybody, since he exceeded expectations. He declared afterward that he was aware of the low front pressure issue, but he felt it was not his problem.

I am hopeful that 2027, with the 850cc engines, reduced aerodynamic appendices, no more ride height devices, reduced number of engines, 100% synthetic fuel will add some much-needed competition.

[GuzziMoto]

50 minutes ago, p6x said:

Opinion about Michelin tires aside, I would have a hard time believing that them, Michelin, would have been able to enforce such a directive without any fact or proof to provide to Dorna to have them endorse the decision.

As I type this, there were some pilot's opinions on Viñales' declassification, and every one of those that expressed their opinion approved the rules have to be enforced.

There are several videos that have reiterated that Michelin came up with a modified design that would have done away with the 1.8 bars minimum limit for 60% of the race, unfortunately, Dorna has not accepted to have the new tire introduced, for undisclosed reasons, upon which we can only speculate.

If excepted for the Maverick incident, those rules have been fairly followed in the field, we will remember that Marc Marquez used his brother to reheat is front tire.

I don't know if that new front tire will ever be used, given that Pirelli is taking over in 2027.

Anyhow, the front tire pressure is unlikely to change the pecking order of 2025 and 2026. Tech3 admitted they set the front tire pressure thinking Maverick Viñales would remain in the middle of the pack, which is frustrating for everybody, since he exceeded expectations. He declared afterward that he was aware of the low front pressure issue, but he felt it was not his problem.

I am hopeful that 2027, with the 850cc engines, reduced aerodynamic appendices, no more ride height devices, reduced number of engines, 100% synthetic fuel will add some much-needed competition.

I don't see why you think Michelin would need Dorna's approval to not introduce a new front tire. They (Michelin) hold all the cards there. All they have to say is "We are not ready to introduce it" and it does not get introduced. There is no way Dorna is going to try to force Michelin into introducing a tire that Micheling doesn't want to introduce. I get that Michelin doesn't want to introduce it since they have very limited testing of it. But Michelin do not have to prove anything to Dorna. They are the ones supplying the tires, and if they say they are not supplying a new front tire they are not supplying a new front tire. Reports seem to indicate that Michelin has decided not to introduce the tire. If you have reports that put that on Dorna, please share.

As to the Vinales incident and his penalty, I don't think anyone is saying that the rules should not be enforced. What many, myself included, are saying is the rule is stupid and should be changed. Many people, including racers, seem to be saying that. But as it stands, what we end up with is a situation where some racers are able to game the system, are able to run front tire pressure that is too low, but get away with it by artificially inflating that tires pressure by running close behind another racer for enough of the race to meet the letter of the rule. While other racers who are perhaps less skilled in such things, are given a penalty. Vinales's main issue, as you mention, is he ran better then he and the team expected. For that his race was ruined. That doesn't seem right.

But, as mentioned before, my main issue with the front tire pressure rule is that Michelin are saying that you can't run the tire below a certain pressure for safety reason, but have no evidence of safety issues below that pressure. On the other side of that coin is that the tire works best below that minimum pressure they set. So, no tire failures have occurred from running below that minimum pressure AND best tire performance is achieved running below that minimum pressure. That makes no sense.

 

I am hopeful about the change in tire supplier. And I do see the small reduction in aero along with getting rid of the ride height devices as being a positive step. I see the reduction in engine capacity as a step in the other direction, that will likely make the racing less entertaining, the same as it did last time. It will likely also increase the danger, as it did last time.

Edited 19 hours ago by GuzziMoto