MotoGP

[p6x]

4 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

Well, the Austrian GP came and went. It was not an overly exciting race, but it was an excellent ride by Pecco, showing why he is already a world champion. Jorge Martin did an amazing lap in qualy, but sadly he did not have that pace in the race. Had he not messed up in the sprint Martin might have had something for Pecco there, but that mistake missing the chicane and the bigger mistake by not slowing down to loose a second was pretty costly. How did he not see that coming?

According to one of those journalists that provide a GP debrief, it seems that Jorge Martin fell into a trap set by Francesco Bagnaia.

Apparently, Pecco knew that Jorge was going to make a move, and he anticipated that he would not be able to brake to make the turn. This is another aspect of the racer we also need to factor in. He is capable of strategy, not only being fast on the bike.

The journalist also touched upon the existing collaboration between Enea Bastianini and Bagnaia. Bagnaia explained that both riders frequently collaborate and help each others. Because they share the workload, it helps them to pick the best setup. Bagnaia explained that he did not have time to check the hard front, which Bastianini did. He simply walked to Enea and asked him what he thought. Enea told him that it was a no-go for the race.

Next year, Bagnaia will not get that kind of assistance from MM93.

This Austian GP was deemed "boring"; a Ducati show in KTM's territory!!

[LowRyter]

It looked like Peco had 20 more HP the way he motored away from Martin

Edited August 19 by LowRyter

[GuzziMoto]

8 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

It looked Peso had 20 more HP the way he motored away from Martin

Yeah, I assume the conspiracy theory people will be all over that. He did motor by with ease. Break out the tin foil hats.....

[GuzziMoto]

34 minutes ago, p6x said:

According to one of those journalists that provide a GP debrief, it seems that Jorge Martin fell into a trap set by Francesco Bagnaia.

Apparently, Pecco knew that Jorge was going to make a move, and he anticipated that he would not be able to brake to make the turn. This is another aspect of the racer we also need to factor in. He is capable of strategy, not only being fast on the bike.

The journalist also touched upon the existing collaboration between Enea Bastianini and Bagnaia. Bagnaia explained that both riders frequently collaborate and help each others. Because they share the workload, it helps them to pick the best setup. Bagnaia explained that he did not have time to check the hard front, which Bastianini did. He simply walked to Enea and asked him what he thought. Enea told him that it was a no-go for the race.

Next year, Bagnaia will not get that kind of assistance from MM93.

This Austian GP was deemed "boring"; a Ducati show in KTM's territory!!

Yeah, that would be a concern for next year. Ducati would be kidding themselves if they think next years two factory team riders will work together like this years. Even though he is being shown the door Bastianini is still a team player. I could see Marc even poisoning the well by giving false feedback so when they ask his mechanic (since he isn't going to directly help his team mate) they get bad info.

[LowRyter]

4 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Yeah, I assume the conspiracy theory people will be all over that. He did motor by with ease. Break out the tin foil hats.....

It seemed a lot more than just getting the bike straight and the power down.... he motored right past

[GuzziMoto]

17 hours ago, LowRyter said:

It seemed a lot more than just getting the bike straight and the power down.... he motored right past

Yes, it seemed very simple and obvious. But the realities of speed on a race track are rarely simple. There are many factors at play, ranging from tire grip to engine settings and gearing. He made it look easy, but I am pretty sure it wasn't easy. But I do get that many will have seen that and assume that there is a conspiracy in play, that Ducati are working behind the scenes to make sure Bagnia wins and not Martin. I don't believe that is true, but I have no doubt some will. I agree that Ducati would rather Bagnia won over Martin, but in the end I don't see them working against a guy on their bike, I don't see them doing anything to slow Martin down. I get them working harder to help Bagnia, but not actively working against a guy on their bike. That would make them look bad, and Ducati don't race to look bad.

[LowRyter]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

Yes, it seemed very simple and obvious. But the realities of speed on a race track are rarely simple. There are many factors at play, ranging from tire grip to engine settings and gearing. He made it look easy, but I am pretty sure it wasn't easy. But I do get that many will have seen that and assume that there is a conspiracy in play, that Ducati are working behind the scenes to make sure Bagnia wins and not Martin. I don't believe that is true, but I have no doubt some will. I agree that Ducati would rather Bagnia won over Martin, but in the end I don't see them working against a guy on their bike, I don't see them doing anything to slow Martin down. I get them working harder to help Bagnia, but not actively working against a guy on their bike. That would make them look bad, and Ducati don't race to look bad.

It's getting the power down on the road.  In his case, it appeared he had more power in the first place since he took off midway down the straight away.

I'd like to hear from an expert like Lucky Phil about it.  @Lucky Phil

[GuzziMoto]

1 hour ago, LowRyter said:

It's getting the power down on the road.  In his case, it appeared he had more power in the first place since he took off midway down the straight away.

I'd like to hear from an expert like Lucky Phil about it.  @Lucky Phil

Wow, that is cold. Pretty sure I have more motorcycle racing experience them Phil. But you do you. I'm out.

[LowRyter]

3 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Wow, that is cold. Pretty sure I have more motorcycle racing experience them Phil. But you do you. I'm out.

SO sorry,  I didn't know what your experience was.  I was only trying to draw Phil in the discussion.  

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, LowRyter said:

SO sorry,  I didn't know what your experience was.  I was only trying to draw Phil in the discussion.  

I watched the race and don't remember seeing anything I thought was questionable with regards to bike performance between the Ducati boys. Guzzimoto is correct in that speed on the straight is a combination of many things including the drive you get onto it at some tracks like Phillip Island and Portimao for example. Add to that fuel saving strategies and aero these days and it's even more complex. I always laughed back in the 500 days about the "big advantage" the Hondas had in top speed over the Yamahas which was true but the problem was they made it all at the end of the straight which was a problem. The Yamaha would accelerate out of the corner onto the straight and pull a gap on a Honda only to get passed again with ease esp with the draft. Problem was this all happened just before the braking point so now the  Honda guys were carrying more speed and needed to pull it up at which point the Yamaha guys would be up the inside with less speed to wash off. Top speed is as much about where you attain it as the actual number. In WSB this year the Yamahas are the slowest bikes and have a big issue with that as the last race demonstrated with a very long straight. I was hoping Remy would be able to negate that as he's shown in the past he's very very good at getting drive onto the straight at Portimao but he didn't have an advantage on the R1 this time. Fuel consumption dictates power these days and if one rider goes to a fuel saving/tyre conservation map a lap before the other rider then you'll probably see a disparity on the straight. Didn't Pecco run out of fuel on the warm down lap? or was that in warm-up/qualifying? 

[LowRyter]

My last deal on the subject.  Pecco blew by midway down the straight away.  That wasn't pulling out of the turn by getting the bike upright or having superior traction control IMO.  It was out and out horsepower that kicked on after everyone was "hooked up".   Drive by you and gone.  Can't draft around him, can't catch him.  "See ya later, bye." 

Martin ain't gonna carry that #1 plate to Aprilia.  

I'll admit, it's a mystery for sure.  I didn't think the gray bearded guy had another 30HP laying around in his back pocket.  But I guess he did and does.

10-4 buddy.  Over and out.

[p6x]

KTM is having a rough landing, suddenly;

At the beginning of the 2024 season, Pedro Acosta incredible achievement seemed to be at the level of the expectations. Although the rest of the team seemed to be the true reflection of their competition state.

Following the Austrian GP, with Brad Binder best KTM arriving at the 5th place, but with an 18 seconds gap to the top, there is not much to feel positive about.

There are not struggling as much as the Japanese brands, but they had greater expectations to be able to compete for the championship this year.

I am wondering if Ducati will keep dominating the field up until 2027, when the new rules come into play?

[GuzziMoto]

Some of KTMs issues stem from subtle changes to the range of Michelin tires that are spec'd. They seem to be struggling with the new tires, so are the 2023 Ducati's. That is one of the issues with spec tires. It seems obvious that spec tires are fair and equal to all. But KTM have a very different chassis design that would likely do much better with different tires than the others, who all now have an aluminum beam style chassis. Think back to Ducati trying to make their carbon fiber chassis work. It likely could have worked, but they were struggling to get it to work with the same tires everyone else was using. In the end, they realized it would be easier to build a chassis the same way everyone else at the time was doing. And that was right. But KTM is heavily invested in the steel chassis idea, and they do not want to loose that. They have already moved from a tubular trellis chassis to what could be described as a steel beam chassis to then a carbon fiber beam chassis. But switching to aluminum is not a move they are yet willing to make. So they are struggling to make their chassis work with the current spec tires. And each time they seem to get closer, the goal posts move, Michelin changes the tire construction and/or compound. 

Also, the current bikes do things to the tires due to the aero cr@p that is crazy, the tires struggle with temp and pressure. Follow someone else too closely and the tire temps and pressures go up and out of the window for best performance. In all my years of racing I never had to deal with anything like that. The Michelin tires seem to work best at the bottom edge of their pressure window, and any increase in temp causes the pressure to rise above that optimum pressure. That does not make for better racing. This has been exacerbated by the addition of tire pressure sensors measuring tire pressure real time and penalties being applied for the pressure going below that threshold for a substantial percentage of the race. This has all been done in the name of safety, but there were no safety issues to begin with, there were no tire failures occurring due to the low pressures being run. It was merely the fear that such failures could occur that lead to the tire pressure rules. No actual tire pressure problem existed.

Not sure if Ducati will continue to dominate until 2027, but for sure next year things will be dramatically shaken up. Not sure how things will change next year, but odds are things will change next year with the changes happening at Ducati.

Edited August 22 by GuzziMoto

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Some of KTMs issues stem from subtle changes to the range of Michelin tires that are spec'd. They seem to be struggling with the new tires, so are the 2023 Ducati's. That is one of the issues with spec tires. It seems obvious that spec tires are fair and equal to all. But KTM have a very different chassis design that would likely do much better with different tires than the others, who all now have an aluminum beam style chassis. Think back to Ducati trying to make their carbon fiber chassis work. It likely could have worked, but they were struggling to get it to work with the same tires everyone else was using. In the end, they realized it would be easier to build a chassis the same way everyone else at the time was doing. And that was right. But KTM is heavily invested in the steel chassis idea, and they do not want to loose that. They have already moved from a tubular trellis chassis to what could be described as a steel beam chassis to then a carbon fiber beam chassis. But switching to aluminum is not a move they are yet willing to make. So they are struggling to make their chassis work with the current spec tires. And each time they seem to get closer, the goal posts move, Michelin changes the tire construction and/or compound. 

Also, the current bikes do things to the tires due to the aero cr@p that is crazy, the tires struggle with temp and pressure. Follow someone else too closely and the tire temps and pressures go up and out of the window for best performance. In all my years of racing I never had to deal with anything like that. The Michelin tires seem to work best at the bottom edge of their pressure window, and any increase in temp causes the pressure to rise above that optimum pressure. That does not make for better racing. This has been exacerbated by the addition of tire pressure sensors measuring tire pressure real time and penalties being applied for the pressure going below that threshold for a substantial percentage of the race. This has all been done in the name of safety, but there were no safety issues to begin with, there were no tire failures occurring due to the low pressures being run. It was merely the fear that such failures could occur that lead to the tire pressure rules. No actual tire pressure problem existed.

Not sure if Ducati will continue to dominate until 2027, but for sure next year things will be dramatically shaken up. Not sure how things will change next year, but odds are things will change next year with the changes happening at Ducati.

Yes all correct. The perennial issue these days is adapting your chassis to the latest tyres. Back in the pre spec tyre days the tyre manufacturers would build you a tyre to suit your chassis which was faster cheaper and easier for the bike manufacturers. They would even make them overnight and ship them to the race for certain riders at close by tracks. 

The other KTM issue is WP suspension. Not saying it's better or worse than Ohlins but when every other single bike is running Ohlins until you are as well you never know just how much advantage or disadvantage the WP suspension is giving you. In times when you are literally chasing 10th's of a second you can't afford any disadvantage if there is one. The CF chassis in the current KTM is a red herring/blind alley anyway. Tubular trellis is not a design that lends itself to CF material. Think of bicycles 30 years ago that started using tubular CF construction, basically a round carbon tube traditional construction bike and look at the shape they use now in CF. It took them many years to understand that the carbon material required a totally different profile and shape to offer any advantage. It's like building a tube trellis frame in aluminium. It can be done but it's the wrong design/cross sectional shape for the material characteristics. Ducati made a big mistake back when Rossi was riding for them ditching the CF chassis to try and appease Rossi's lack of ability to adapt to the CF chassis. They had a great medium to long term engineering plan to move chassis design forward but caved under the Rossi can't adapt and "must win now" pressure and leverage he had with Ducati via the sponsors. He realised what a brilliant rider Stoner was after riding that Ducati. Stoner liked the CF chassis. He said the issue with the trellis chassis was no two ever felt the same due to the many and varied pieces that go into it and the many welded joints. The CF chassies were all the same feel no matter what apparently. Until that is you decided to lay the carbon slightly differently to change the flex characteristic. That was the forward plan, a fast, cheap, efficient and easy way to tailor a chassis characteristics to changing tyre and rider requirements. Scuppered by an ego at the end of the day.    

Edited August 22 by Lucky Phil

[GuzziMoto]

On 8/22/2024 at 7:11 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Yes all correct. The perennial issue these days is adapting your chassis to the latest tyres. Back in the pre spec tyre days the tyre manufacturers would build you a tyre to suit your chassis which was faster cheaper and easier for the bike manufacturers. They would even make them overnight and ship them to the race for certain riders at close by tracks. 

The other KTM issue is WP suspension. Not saying it's better or worse than Ohlins but when every other single bike is running Ohlins until you are as well you never know just how much advantage or disadvantage the WP suspension is giving you. In times when you are literally chasing 10th's of a second you can't afford any disadvantage if there is one. The CF chassis in the current KTM is a red herring/blind alley anyway. Tubular trellis is not a design that lends itself to CF material. Think of bicycles 30 years ago that started using tubular CF construction, basically a round carbon tube traditional construction bike and look at the shape they use now in CF. It took them many years to understand that the carbon material required a totally different profile and shape to offer any advantage. It's like building a tube trellis frame in aluminium. It can be done but it's the wrong design/cross sectional shape for the material characteristics. Ducati made a big mistake back when Rossi was riding for them ditching the CF chassis to try and appease Rossi's lack of ability to adapt to the CF chassis. They had a great medium to long term engineering plan to move chassis design forward but caved under the Rossi can't adapt and "must win now" pressure and leverage he had with Ducati via the sponsors. He realised what a brilliant rider Stoner was after riding that Ducati. Stoner liked the CF chassis. He said the issue with the trellis chassis was no two ever felt the same due to the many and varied pieces that go into it and the many welded joints. The CF chassies were all the same feel no matter what apparently. Until that is you decided to lay the carbon slightly differently to change the flex characteristic. That was the forward plan, a fast, cheap, efficient and easy way to tailor a chassis characteristics to changing tyre and rider requirements. Scuppered by an ego at the end of the day.    

To be fair, Stoner said he liked the CF chassis, but was not able to go fast on it. He believed it had promise, but it was not ready for primetime yet, and even with Stoner on it the CF chassis was not a winner. I am pretty sure the move to an aluminum chassis was made for the same reason you seem to suggest KTM should switch to Ohlins suspension. It was the quickest and easiest way to get on par with the others. From there, once you are on par you can then start developing new designs and see if they are actually faster. But rolling out a new design before it is actually faster is a mistake. Ducati rolled out the CF chassis before it was faster. And then they had nothing to reference it to internally, so they were lost.

As to the steel trellis frame and each one feeling different, that is true. But that may be why KTM don't really run a trellis frame anymore. First they went from a steel trellis frame to what could best be described as a steel beam frame. That would have reduced, if not eliminated, the frame to frame differences you tend to get with a trellis frame. Then they rolled out the carbon fiber frame, we don't know exactly how it is made because KTM are careful to limit pictures and they aren't revealing things like that (understandably). But it is clearly not made up from pre made carbon fiber tubes. It looks very similar to the previous steel beam frame, but has some visible differences. But exactly how it is made no one outside KTM seem to know. It does seem to allow them to change the weave and layup of the carbon to alter the flex of the frame, as you mention. Their issue seems to be that once they hit on a combination of weave and layup that worked with the spec tires Michelin changed the spec tires, the goalposts have moved.