2023 MotoAmerica Medallia SuperBike Racing

[GuzziMoto]

On 10/14/2023 at 4:43 PM, p6x said:

If it is proven that Moto America Yamaha team used an illegal fuel, they should be disqualified.

I remember some fuel issues in F1 back in the days. I can't remember what it was off the top of my head, but trying to cheat the rules is not new.

I also remember Femke van den Driessche, a Belgian cyclist who had an electrical motor hidden in the frame of her bicycle. The cylindrical motor was inside the seat tube, and directly drove the crankshaft completely hidden from the view. It could be activated via wireless. As ever, she was not aware of the contraption stating she had borrowed the bike from a friend.

It is sad if the Moto America Yamaha team used illegal fuel. It would ruin Jake Gagné's efforts and may also affect his reputation. Even if he claims that he was unaware of it.

 

Jake was disqualified, from race 2 @ COTA. But the question immediately arises, how long had the team been running the illegal fuel? They really can't disqualify him from other races, although in my book they could have disqualified him from race 1 @ COTA as well since it seems likely he was running the same fuel for race 1. But that is likely strecthing things, and reality is he is only disqualified from race 2 @ COTA. But his championship is tainted now, probably through no fault of his own. The rider at that level would likely have no knowledge of what fuel was put in his bike. It seems unlikely he was involved. But he is affected, whether he knew or not.

Hopefully MotoAmerica has learned a lesson from this and will actually test fuel often enough to prevent this from happening.

I raced back in the days of fuel wars, and some of the fuels used were seriously nasty. But you had to run something similar, or you were going to lose. Everyone was going it. I applaud MotoAmerica doing away with the fuel wars, but if you are going to ban fuels like that you need to test fuel. I don't know what they were thinking passing a spec fuel rule and then not testing fuel at all.

[Joe]

5 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Jake was disqualified, from race 2 @ COTA. But the question immediately arises, how long had the team been running the illegal fuel? They really can't disqualify him from other races, although in my book they could have disqualified him from race 1 @ COTA as well since it seems likely he was running the same fuel for race 1. But that is likely strecthing things, and reality is he is only disqualified from race 2 @ COTA. But his championship is tainted now, probably through no fault of his own. The rider at that level would likely have no knowledge of what fuel was put in his bike. It seems unlikely he was involved. But he is affected, whether he knew or not.

Hopefully MotoAmerica has learned a lesson from this and will actually test fuel often enough to prevent this from happening.

I raced back in the days of fuel wars, and some of the fuels used were seriously nasty. But you had to run something similar, or you were going to lose. Everyone was going it. I applaud MotoAmerica doing away with the fuel wars, but if you are going to ban fuels like that you need to test fuel. I don't know what they were thinking passing a spec fuel rule and then not testing fuel at all.

Jake could always seem to run off from everyone at the start of the race. Yes he is a great rider, but it does give doubt that his fuel has the "special race day mix."   

[p6x]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

Jake could always seem to run off from everyone at the start of the race. Yes he is a great rider, but it does give doubt that his fuel has the "special race day mix."   

Some pilots always seem to be very good at starting off the grid while others are not. Now Jake is more than often in the top three start positions, and that helps too.

[p6x]

7 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

But the question immediately arises, how long had the team been running the illegal fuel?

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To be frank, I have a hard time accepting his team would do anything like this without telling him. Because at the end of the day, he is the front of the outfit and could be banned.

Moto America should sample the fuel of the podium bikes.

[Joe]

4 hours ago, p6x said:

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To be frank, I have a hard time accepting his team would do anything like this without telling him. Because at the end of the day, he is the front of the outfit and could be banned.

Moto America should sample the fuel of the podium bikes.

I wonder if any of the top tier race teams will drop off the pace after consistent fuel testing.  

[GuzziMoto]

In my opinion, Jakes ability to clear off quickly at the start of a race is more about his talent and ability to go fast on cold tires and has nothing to do with the fuel. But the team running illegal fuel is illegal (obviously) and it does taint what Jake has accomplished.

As to the team telling him, in my experience as a racer the team is unlikely to involve the rider in things like that. The rider has certain responsibilities, and on a big team like that what fuel the team runs is not one of them. Jake might have known that the fuel was illegal, but he likely had no involvement in that decision.

Even on the small team I raced for I as the rider was not involved in deciding what fuel we ran. I did know what fuel we ran, but only because I had to help load it and unload it. I am pretty sure Jake doesn't do that at the team he rides for. They have people to do that. We had four people, including me.

[Joe]

2 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

In my opinion, Jakes ability to clear off quickly at the start of a race is more about his talent and ability to go fast on cold tires and has nothing to do with the fuel. But the team running illegal fuel is illegal (obviously) and it does taint what Jake has accomplished.

As to the team telling him, in my experience as a racer the team is unlikely to involve the rider in things like that. The rider has certain responsibilities, and on a big team like that what fuel the team runs is not one of them. Jake might have known that the fuel was illegal, but he likely had no involvement in that decision.

Even on the small team I raced for I as the rider was not involved in deciding what fuel we ran. I did know what fuel we ran, but only because I had to help load it and unload it. I am pretty sure Jake doesn't do that at the team he rides for. They have people to do that. We had four people, including me.

Interesting to note, there were quite a few track records broken this season by different teams (Ducati, BMW & Yamaha). "If you ain't cheating your not trying" method......      

[audiomick]

7 hours ago, Joe said:

 "If you ain't cheating your not trying"

Why does that cause me to think of professional bicycle racing and doping?

[p6x]

10 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

In my opinion, Jakes ability to clear off quickly at the start of a race is more about his talent and ability to go fast on cold tires and has nothing to do with the fuel. But the team running illegal fuel is illegal (obviously) and it does taint what Jake has accomplished.

As to the team telling him, in my experience as a racer the team is unlikely to involve the rider in things like that. The rider has certain responsibilities, and on a big team like that what fuel the team runs is not one of them. Jake might have known that the fuel was illegal, but he likely had no involvement in that decision.

Even on the small team I raced for I as the rider was not involved in deciding what fuel we ran. I did know what fuel we ran, but only because I had to help load it and unload it. I am pretty sure Jake doesn't do that at the team he rides for. They have people to do that. We had four people, including me.

If I was Jake, I would really be annoyed at my team. Since he would be the one paying for the consequences of someone else's decisions. Unacceptable.

What would his team tell him if he gets banned to race for several races because of this? not smart...

I am hoping the illegal fuel was a single time mistake.

[p6x]

10 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

In my opinion, Jakes ability to clear off quickly at the start of a race is more about his talent and ability to go fast on cold tires and has nothing to do with the fuel.

Do they have any kind of startup devices like in MotoGP? you know the ones that adjust the height of bike? initially only the rear, but now they have front and rear too.

[p6x]

57 minutes ago, audiomick said:

Why does that cause me to think of professional bicycle racing and doping?

Well, this one is a real sore... note that for some reason, doping always existed at the Tour de France. Starting with Tom Simpson.

Even today, I don't know if they are as clean as they say they are.

 

[audiomick]

27 minutes ago, p6x said:

Even today, I don't know if they are as clean as they say they are.

 

I'm quite sure they're not.

[GuzziMoto]

13 hours ago, p6x said:

Do they have any kind of startup devices like in MotoGP? you know the ones that adjust the height of bike? initially only the rear, but now they have front and rear too.

No, the hole shot devices, front or rear, are not in MotoAmerica. The original front device was simple and based on what motocross guys have been using for ages. It simply holds the front suspension compressed. Likely they have by now gotten more complex. The rear devices are more complicated. But neither of them are used in MotoAmerica to my knowledge.

There are two aspects to the start advantage. One is the reaction time and the initial hole shot to turn one. That is down to good reaction time and ability to feed to power in. The other side of it is the rest of the opening lap and a riders ability to go fast on what are effectively cold tires. Yes, they use tire warmers, but the tires aren't really working 100% right off the bat. They take a lap or so to scrub in and develop full grip. Being able to push hard on the first lap is a skill in itself.

Back in the day I was pretty good at starts and could push hard on lap one. Our strategy was to try to push hard out of the gate and build a gap in the first few laps. Then I could back off just a hair and manage that gap. My team owner wanted me to make sure the other guys never thought they had a chance if at all possible. He didn't want me giving them any hope that they could win. He was a super nice guy, but ruthless when it came to winning. Not every race went that way, but more then a few did. Good times.

[p6x]

28 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

Our strategy was to try to push hard out of the gate and build a gap in the first few laps.

I have recognized you Jorge Lorenzo!!!

[p6x]

@GuzziMoto From what I understood, Ducati has even perfected the hole shot device, this is why Binder got matched lately. They have added something which Pecco Bagnaia touched upon in an interview without saying what it was.

This new device is present on all the factory spec'ed bikes, minus Zarco's.