Share your lithium battery experience; cold environment, durability, else?

[p6x]

In the oilfield industry, we started to experiment with chemistry in batteries from the 80's.

The Lithium batteries came out eventually late 80's early 90's. They outclassed any other chemistry type in terms of autonomy, however they were known for being poor performers at cold temperatures, difficult to put out if catching fire, and less known to the general public, if stored for long time without use, to develop a passive layer around the anode preventing high amp draw at start.

Today, Lithium batteries are used in vehicles, planes; they have probably improved on some of the earlier drawbacks, but as far as I understand, cold is still an adverse factor.

I have conventional batteries in all my vehicles, including my V11. I have seen Lithium fires, part of the training from our main battery provider, and while they don't happen often, they are impossible to put out without specific means. A Lithium battery fire would salivate at the perspective to involve your V11 plastic gas tank...

In cold environment, we had to "warm" the batteries before they could deliver up to their normal specs. For that, we had a contraption connected to the battery, that would draw current through various resistors until the battery became fully "primed".

I am curious to understand how well your V11 Lithium battery performs in the cold, in situations when you have not used the motorcycle for several days, weeks?

[audiomick]

55 minutes ago, p6x said:

 cold is still an adverse factor.

For what it is worth, that is not just lithium batteries. Some types deal with it better than others, but all batteries deliver less power when they are cold.

[p6x]

2 hours ago, audiomick said:

For what it is worth, that is not just lithium batteries. Some types deal with it better than others, but all batteries deliver less power when they are cold.

True, but Lithium batteries are particularly affected by low temperatures.

[guzziart]

FWIW, I put a Shorai in my '72 CB450 back in 2010.  I sold the CB450 in the winter of '12, the battery had no problem cranking the engine in a 38F. garage.  When I first got the battery I thought it was a joke because it weighted nearly nothing but for the 2 years I had it in the bike it worked as expected.

Yeah, the CB450 was another bike I regretted getting rid of.

Art

[Chuck]

I've never been a fan, but I needed a light weight at all costs battery for my little homebuilt airplane. Did the research and found one about the right size and cranking amps. It weighs practically nothing. Since I needed it to mount it and leave room for all the other things on the firewall, I bought it first. From the time I bought it until first start was about a year and a half. Cranked right up.

[MartyNZ]

I have a Shorai lithium battery in my bike. LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is the most stable and least likely to catch fire of all the battery technologies.

For cold starting, I have never noticed any problem, but Shorai says: "If starting at 5°C, headlights on for 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at -17°C (1°F), leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life.  If the engine fails to start on first crank, that first crank has warmed the battery, and the second attempt will be much stronger."

I've been told that it needs a "balance charge" once a year or so. It comes with a dedicated charger that plugs into a tiny 5 pin socket and manages the voltage of each cell. The charger also has a "storage" button that holds the battery at 70% for longer shelf life.

The Shorai LFX21L6-BS12 cranks my V11 well after 7 years.

LiFePO4 is also in my electric car, but outside temperature is not an issue as it has a liquid battery temperature management system. 

 

[KINDOY2]

I've had Shorai batteries on all my bikes for the last 12 years..Norton's,KTM's,Harley's,Ducati's , triumphs,BMW's, Aprilias,Moto Guzzi's...Probably more than 15 bikes..I have had nothing but great use from them.., they crank exceptionally well.I wouldn't have anything else.

The only people I know to have problems with them are people who don't follow the charging instructions that comes with them , or..if they happen to let it go totally dead the  people don't follow the instructions on how to wake them up..which Shorai will gladly send to you if you call them...They are easy and simple  to maintain if you read the instructions. 

As far as I am concerned..buying one of their charger's will be well worth it in the long run.., they are about $60 USD

As Marty Said..When its cold.turn the key and lights on without starting for a few seconds to wake them up..and then then off for a second and before strarting they will give you a stronger crank.

[guzzler]

Thats interesting, thanks fella's.

I've had a good run with the Odyssey's in my bike but what a pain in the arse they are to change over...

Thankfully thats not that often!

I have wondered about these Lithium batteries but like others wouldn't go that way due to the risk of spontaneous combustion and cold weather performance!

Sounds like these issues have improved quite a bit and may consider one when needed next?

Ha ha if it's ok in CHCH weather then it'd be fine here in OZ!

Coming from CHCH originally I'm familiar with the weather.....

Cheers 

Ps do you need to trickle or charge these things as if so that would be a deal breaker for me?

I ride year round here so normally battery is kept charged but since covid and work from home I've had the odd period where she's sat for a bit.

[MartyNZ]

59 minutes ago, guzzler said:

Ha ha if it's ok in CHCH weather then it'd be fine here in OZ!

Coming from CHCH originally I'm familiar with the weather.....

Cheers 

Ps do you need to trickle or charge these things as if so that would be a deal breaker for me?

I ride year round here so normally battery is kept charged but since covid and work from home I've had the odd period where she's sat for a bit.

To be fair, a record cold temp at my place is only -8, and even so I'm too soft to ride in freezing weather.

The bike alternator keeps the battery charged.

The picture shows that the battery needs 20mm packing on each side to stop it rattling about. 

[guzzler]

Thanks mate

Don't worry I try not to ride when the weather gets below 5 degrees these days...

That looks like it'd be a lot easier to swap over than the Odyssey.

Hmmm something to think about!

[Weegie]

Got a Shorai in the 1100 Sport bike, I used it due to space constaints and it works fine.

The only problem I sometimes have is going from store to charge, I get repeated failures on the charger and I've got to reset it 10 or more, which gets tedious. It always gets there eventually.

I don't ride at low temps so cannot comment on that but it's well documented.

As said the batteries require balance charging to prolong life and anything longer than a few weeks off the road, I put the battery into Storage mode.

LiFe give greater CCA but have reduced Ah capacity and I also balance charge it with a small hand held unit Shorai sent me.

LiFe so I'm informed also prefer a slightly lower charging voltage, but my expereince so far is positive

[ScuRoo]

I’ve spoken before about LiFePO on other posts

Wouldn’t use anything  else. As Bruce says 

’Lead’s dead baby… Lead’s dead’

[PeterT]

I've been running a BC LiFePO4 battery in my V11 for the last 7 years.  It is 1 size smaller than BC recommend for a V11 (mine is a BCTZ14S-FP-S 12V, 54Wh) but I needed this size to fit in the Ghezzi Brian tail.  It is incredibly light.  It puts out loads of cranking amps.  I measured it using special resistive shunt and an oscilloscope, and the initial peak current was nearly 500A before it rapidly subsided as the engine cranked over.   Yes they do seem to put out less current when cold so I agree with previous comments.  But they do keep their charge remarkably better than a lead type, assuming there is little or no small leakage current to drain them.  One thing to bear in mind is that their capacity is not as large (they are, after all a fraction of the weight and about half to 1/3rd of the volume).  The 12V, 54Whr of the LiFePO4 battery corresponds to 4.5 Ampere-hours, while the original equipment lead battery fitted is 13Ah.  This is really only required to make the lead battery big enough to reduce its internal resistance so it can give enough cranking amps.  The LiFePO4 battery can do this from a much smaller size because it has a fundamentally much smaller internal resistance.  Obviously, you don't need much capacity to start, so the smaller capacity is fine, but if anything does drain the battery while it is not charging (like leaving the parking lights on when parked or if your charging circuit has a fault) the battery will become flat about 3 times quicker.   I have a voltmeter fitted to the dashboard so I can see exactly when it is charging as I have had overheating problems with the small 30A charging mini fuse holder but I have cured this by putting in a new, much larger, Maxi fuse-holder on a dedicated flying lead that is capable of taking 100A fuses: obviously I  still only put in a 30A fuse but it has cured the tendency for the charging circuit to fail due to degradation of the fuse holder contacts.  This brings me to my last point which is that when I put the bike on its intelligent charger its self diagnostic does not like the leakage current the bike takes and it says the battery is faulty.  This is due to leakage current through the diodes of the alternator rectifier (I think more modern bike rectifiers have diodes with much lower leakage current), so I remove the 30A fuse to isolate it and all is well.  This would seem to me to be a good precaution if you use a LiFePO4 battery if it is being laid up for any time, whether you put it on the a maintenance charger or not.  In fact, for a standard V11 the rectifier is probably the only significant current drain and once this is removed, the LiFePO4 battery seems to maintain charge almost indefinitely.   

[audiomick]

23 hours ago, guzzler said:

 the risk of spontaneous combustion...

Look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery#Safety

The batteries that are sold for automotive use, i.e. also the ones as replacement for lead-acid motorcycle batteries, are all LiFePO₄

They can be considered safe. The ones that have made it in to the various media reports because of fires in laptops and aeroplanes and so on were, as far as I know, other types of lithium battery.

 

I have heard of a couple of instances of a LiFePO₄  battery overheating. One in particular was in an SP 1000 Cafe Racer. I've seen the bike; it is a nice custom, but I reckon the bloke was counting the bucks when he did it. I assume the charging system was original, and not renovated. The battery was, I reckon, too small. I believe it was around 4 Ah. . Probably chosen more for price than anything else. Note that the battery overheated and started letting out the magic gray smoke, but did not catch fire.

My theory is, the battery was undersized. It could start the bike, but was fairly discharged as a result. When the bike got running, the battery was pulling heaps of current out of the charging system, and getting warm as a result. Maybe the voltage was a bit high, too. The conclusions I drew from the story were, first, make sure you know what your charging system is delivering, and that it is ok for the lithium battery, and secondly, don't choose a battery that is too small, i.e. not the one that can just manage to turn the starter with no reserves. That way, the battery won't be sucked flat by the start process, and wont be trying to draw as much power to get charged back up.

The theory is based in part on what is written here:

https://www.silent-hektik.de/SH_LiMa.htm

I've got one of those alternators in the V35 Imola (it makes a lovely whirring noise like the blower on the black Ford coupe in the first Mad Max movie...). The battery is still a Gel lead-acid one, but I reckon I'll be putting a lithium battery in there the next time it needs a battery.

This is the first bit of the text under the banner "Technische Details" etc. .

Quote

Thanks to the smart IUU characteristic curve, the new controllers can be used both for existing lead batteries and especially for modern ion batteries.
The ion batteries have the advantage of delivering a very high starting current despite small dimensions and low weight.
However, the low internal battery impedance has a major disadvantage when charging: after starting, the battery is empty and well over 20A charging current can flow. The ion battery becomes very hot due to the excessive current, cannot dissipate the heat easily, and damage can occur.
Therefore, the IUU controller precharges the ion battery with 13.2V, which reduces the initial charge current and overheating significantly.
Then it is gently charged further,  with the voltage automatically increasing over about 17 minutes to 14.2V.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) and corrected by me.

 

So, once again, I'm convinced the LiFePO₄ batteries are safe to use, but a little more attention to the charging system is neccesary, and one shouldn't pinch the pennies when choosing the battery. Buy one that is big enough to have a bit of reserve.

[guzzler]

Thanks mate

I have a Shendengan Mosfet Reg/Rec with another earth too which would help by the sounds..?

As we have a bloke here in the Guzzi club who has had an electrical fire on his Tonti Le-mans many moons ago it's something I'm not keen to replicate!

Don't know the cause of that though.

Will consider one when time comes...

Cheers folk's