Share your lithium battery experience; cold environment, durability, else?

[Weegie]

8 hours ago, guzzler said:

Thanks mate

I have a Shendengan Mosfet Reg/Rec with another earth too which would help by the sounds..?

As we have a bloke here in the Guzzi club who has had an electrical fire on his Tonti Le-mans many moons ago it's something I'm not keen to replicate!

Don't know the cause of that though.

Will consider one when time comes...

Cheers folk's

IMHO that's a good way to go, I don't know what's in the V11 but the Sporti's Ducati Energia Regulator I'm told is a Series type (thanks @Kiwi_Roy) I've also seen reports of guys installing shunt type regualtors and have not had any problem, so I guess you pays your money and takes you choice.

Ducati recorded quite a few fires and melting looms with LiFe batteries and the Reg/Recs on those bikes were known to be weak. The common fix was a Shindengen Mosfet Reg/Rec replacement and I've not heard of any problems when using them

@audiomick advice also is useful, the problem with them overheating is because of the low internal resistance, meaning they can pull or push large amounts of current, so an undersized or marginal battery doesn't sound like a wise move.

[motortouring]

I don't have experience with Lithium batteries yet, but I did buy a new regulator that is also prepared for Lithium (LiFePo) batteries.

It is from a supplier in the Netherlands, because I wanted it fast, but the same product can be bought elsewhere.

https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4318_1086&products_id=616

The connection can be directly on the battery. It has internal protection against heat and shortcuts.

Mechanically, it does not fit exactly. You have to drill a few extra holes in the bracket.  

It looks like this one is very much the same as the Shendengan of Guzzler.

 

[Gritman]

After a bit of reading up during the build of my project bike, I chose to got the lithium route mainly for the weight saving - its gotta be the cheapest way to save in excess of 3Kg!. During its as yet short service of around 1200m it has worked brilliantly. After assembling the project build I connected up the lead acid battery from the road bike to check over the electrics - but it struggled to churn the engine over on prodding the start button (1225cc, High compression motor). Swapping to the lithium battery, the engine spun really well and fired up the fresh motor no problem, so LOTS of cranking torque. From then, its been Easy Starts, and no issues at all. I also fitted a lithium friendly reg/rect and bought a lithium trickle charger for battery care over the winter. The battery is an AntiGravity AG1201, and the reg/rect is from Ricks Motorsport; 14-001H. Received wisdom says replace the reg/rect as the stock one for lead acid can fry the battery with voltages over 14.2. The pairing works well and maintains 13.5v while in regular use. The bike itself is not at all stock and has a full Motogadget electrical system, which also works well but is a PITA to install!

Overall, I'd recommend the change to Lithium if you are on a weight saving mission, but the stock lead acid has always worked well on my less modified road bike and I wouldn't spend the money just for the sake of it -£582 for battery, reg/rect and charger!!

[LaGrasta]

@Gritman good feedback, thank you.
I will mention though, you purchased the new regulator unnecessarily. Early on, Lithium batteries did not have the technology to self regulate, they all do now. Each comes with the tech to keep them only at acceptable voltage.

[Gritman]

2 minutes ago, LaGrasta said:

@Gritman good feedback, thank you.
I will mention though, you purchased the new regulator unnecessarily. Early on, Lithium batteries did not have the technology to self regulate, they all do now. Each comes with the tech to keep them only at acceptable voltage.

Thanks @LaGrasta I didn’t know that and the blurb that came with the battery recommended using a friendly reg/rect. Also with concerns about fire, I thought it better to be safe than sorry! Especially with the overall cost of the project I didn’t want to run any risks🥸

[Gmc28]

having some fun bringing back an Odyssey from near-death, and that looks to coming along fine (thanks Docc and all for the odyssey "bible" thread).  But while doing so, with the odyssey out and on the rack for its rehab program, i popped in an old Shorai into the Lemans so i could continue to work on other issues while its up on the bike rack.  I removed the Shorai from a KTM 990 at least 5 yrs ago, maybe 6+ yrs ago (i'll check my records), because at the time the KTM was having issues and that battery was drained too far, multiple times, and seemed shot.  it had been in the bike at that point for a year or two already, so i can say with confidence that its now at least 7yrs old.   it then became my shop battery, used for whatever oddball needs i had, including powering my clay pigeon "flinger", and other such honorable tasks.  hit it about once a year with the li-ion specified 2a charger. 

so, popped it in, "backwards" and upright with seat off since the posts are on the wrong sides for the V11,  and that thing was impressive.  Many crank cycles on the bike, running the fuel pump repeatedley, lights, etc., with no charging intervals, and it just kept going.  and when it was cranking, it cranked over the V11 much better than any of the other batteries in my (3) V11's (all odysseys).   that Shorai was abused, and is old, but its punching hard still.  Anecdotal, but I think noteworthy.

put an EarthX in the big 1200 Ducati last fall, and its been impressive.  Came back to my home airport one sunny but cold winter morning, to ride home, and it was right around freezing outside, and the bike was truly cold-soaked from days sitting there in those temps.  Cranked slightly slower, but no problem.   I do the thing where i turn on the key to let the battery "warm up" as is recommended, but in truth I've never seen much difference.  thats either good or bad based on the outcome.... good in that i've never needed to, even when its getting too cold for most mortals to be willingly riding, but bad i suppose if i'm counting on some dramatic improvement in cranking ability when its super cold.  but i haven't really given it a proper test, to be fair.

[Gmc28]

anyone have opinions on the Antigravity vs EArthX (or others)?  I see Gritman has the AntiGravity, which folks tend to like on a variety of platforms (bikes), and seems like the usual other top contender is an EarthX (though also Yuasa, etc).  The Antigravity AG1201 doesnt have the BMS (battery management system) like the EArthX, and i don't know enough about that to know whether its snake-oil or if its of value.

sounds like maybe with a modern VR it may not matter, based on this thread's content, but am looking for more info. 

On 3/7/2024 at 5:26 AM, Gritman said:

After a bit of reading up during the build of my project bike, I chose to got the lithium route mainly for the weight saving - its gotta be the cheapest way to save in excess of 3Kg!. During its as yet short service of around 1200m it has worked brilliantly. After assembling the project build I connected up the lead acid battery from the road bike to check over the electrics - but it struggled to churn the engine over on prodding the start button (1225cc, High compression motor). Swapping to the lithium battery, the engine spun really well and fired up the fresh motor no problem, so LOTS of cranking torque. From then, its been Easy Starts, and no issues at all. I also fitted a lithium friendly reg/rect and bought a lithium trickle charger for battery care over the winter. The battery is an AntiGravity AG1201, and the reg/rect is from Ricks Motorsport; 14-001H. Received wisdom says replace the reg/rect as the stock one for lead acid can fry the battery with voltages over 14.2. The pairing works well and maintains 13.5v while in regular use. The bike itself is not at all stock and has a full Motogadget electrical system, which also works well but is a PITA to install!

Overall, I'd recommend the change to Lithium if you are on a weight saving mission, but the stock lead acid has always worked well on my less modified road bike and I wouldn't spend the money just for the sake of it -£582 for battery, reg/rect and charger!!

 

[Gritman]

Reading between the lines, with an Antigravity you need to change the reg/rect, but not with an EArthX. I’d also be interested in hearing from anyone with first-hand experience, particularly with overall costs.

[Gmc28]

38 minutes ago, Gritman said:

Reading between the lines, with an Antigravity you need to change the reg/rect, but not with an EArthX. I’d also be interested in hearing from anyone with first-hand experience, particularly with overall costs.

makes sense.  the Antigravity is not cheap, but enough cheaper than the EarthX to make it of interest if a guy has the mosfet setup (i do). 

[GuzziMoto]

We have an Anti-Gravity battery on the wife's Ducati Monster. Not a Guzzi, but it uses the same style charging system the V11 does. So far no issues. And no need to swap the R/R. I do like the Re-Start feature.

[PJPR01]

I've had mixed results on 2 Shorai batteries I've used in the past.  I love the weight savings, but ultimately I killed one inadvertently.  I never kept either on a tender.  Both didn't like the cold, but they did perform as expected.  One eventually died, I was able to get it replaced with a refurbed battery by Shorai, the other still lives on my work bench as a spare/backup and seems to work just fine.  I do use the Shorai charging system rather than the standard charger as they have a special port that attaches to the battery rather than to the terminals directly.

I'm curious about the other brands mentioned above...will try one the next time my regular battery goes out on one of the Guzzis.

[LaGrasta]

23 hours ago, Gritman said:

Reading between the lines, with an Antigravity you need to change the reg/rect, but not with an EArthX. I’d also be interested in hearing from anyone with first-hand experience, particularly with overall costs.

AntiGravity has BMS. Seriously though, you would be hard pressed to find any common moto battery without it these days. 

[Gmc28]

5 hours ago, PJPR01 said:

I've had mixed results on 2 Shorai batteries I've used in the past.  I love the weight savings, but ultimately I killed one inadvertently.  I never kept either on a tender.  Both didn't like the cold, but they did perform as expected.  One eventually died, I was able to get it replaced with a refurbed battery by Shorai, the other still lives on my work bench as a spare/backup and seems to work just fine.  I do use the Shorai charging system rather than the standard charger as they have a special port that attaches to the battery rather than to the terminals directly.

I'm curious about the other brands mentioned above...will try one the next time my regular battery goes out on one of the Guzzis.

I hear ya, and that was mostly where I stood up till a few years ago.  but that old Shorai that I thought was at the end of its rope 4-5yrs ago (after it was older and abused/killed) and which i just again today at lunch used on the V11 to cycle the fuel pump a bunch more times, and again crank the engine, all over the last several days with no charging, and its still going strong and showing good voltage.  none of my Odysseys would do all that for that long. crazy.

1 hour ago, LaGrasta said:

AntiGravity has BMS. Seriously though, you would be hard pressed to find any common moto battery without it these days. 

They offer it, but on the AntiGravity website it appears the AG1201 does not have it, as they make that one with a smaller form factor in mind.  Unless I read that wrong from their website page for the AG1201:

Note: there is no BMS in the SMALL CASE Batteries, only Balance Charging. They are for closed course use only.

Though I assume a different model from them could be used that would have it. 

I just ordered the EarthX, the larger one.  It's more expensive, and maybe not worth the extra $60, but figured i'd err on the side of over-coddling the electrics on this machine.

[GuzziMoto]

14 hours ago, Gmc28 said:

I hear ya, and that was mostly where I stood up till a few years ago.  but that old Shorai that I thought was at the end of its rope 4-5yrs ago (after it was older and abused/killed) and which i just again today at lunch used on the V11 to cycle the fuel pump a bunch more times, and again crank the engine, all over the last several days with no charging, and its still going strong and showing good voltage.  none of my Odysseys would do all that for that long. crazy.

They offer it, but on the AntiGravity website it appears the AG1201 does not have it, as they make that one with a smaller form factor in mind.  Unless I read that wrong from their website page for the AG1201:

Note: there is no BMS in the SMALL CASE Batteries, only Balance Charging. They are for closed course use only.

Though I assume a different model from them could be used that would have it. 

I just ordered the EarthX, the larger one.  It's more expensive, and maybe not worth the extra $60, but figured i'd err on the side of over-coddling the electrics on this machine.

I have an old Odyssey battery I pulled out of the wife's V11 years ago because we were going on an extended motorcycle vacation and I didn't want to take a chance. It sat around for a few years after that, then when my lawn tractors battery died some 4 years ago I put it in the lawn tractor. It just started my lawn tractor this past weekend for the first time this spring, and a few times since, despite receiving none of the care listed in docc's write up on how to take care of an Odyssey battery. It gets nothing except what the Briggs and Stratton engine in the tractor gives it. It is dying, but it just won't die. My one experience with a Shorai battery a long time ago was no where near that good, it lasted a couple years and would not start my Griso if it was cold out. Part of that issue was the Griso will abort the start if the battery voltage is below a threshold. Because of that, and other things, the Griso won't let you do the various tricks people do to get some heat into their Lithium battery.

I am seriously looking at getting an electric zero turn lawn mower. And we have an EV car. I like battery tech. But my actual experiences have not been 100% great. I had bum luck with the Shorai, and I also had bad luck with a Ballistic Lithium battery. But I put that down to teething pains for the tech.

[Gmc28]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

I have an old Odyssey battery I pulled out of the wife's V11 years ago because we were going on an extended motorcycle vacation and I didn't want to take a chance. It sat around for a few years after that, then when my lawn tractors battery died some 4 years ago I put it in the lawn tractor. It just started my lawn tractor this past weekend for the first time this spring, and a few times since, despite receiving none of the care listed in docc's write up on how to take care of an Odyssey battery. It gets nothing except what the Briggs and Stratton engine in the tractor gives it. It is dying, but it just won't die. My one experience with a Shorai battery a long time ago was no where near that good, it lasted a couple years and would not start my Griso if it was cold out. Part of that issue was the Griso will abort the start if the battery voltage is below a threshold. Because of that, and other things, the Griso won't let you do the various tricks people do to get some heat into their Lithium battery.

I am seriously looking at getting an electric zero turn lawn mower. And we have an EV car. I like battery tech. But my actual experiences have not been 100% great. I had bum luck with the Shorai, and I also had bad luck with a Ballistic Lithium battery. But I put that down to teething pains for the tech.

No argument here. And far be it from me to become an apostle for anything but the many Odysseys i have or have had.  Just more or less parroting what you, others, and myself have all hit upon, which is that time has led to the evolution of the batt tech to the extent that now we seem to be mostly living with the reputation/issues of the past which may not be as applicable now. 

In the example noted on the posts just above, sounds like you’ve got an old odyssey thats still performing, and I also have averaged 7-9+ yrs on my odysseys, and even then they aren’t “dead”, so that has always kept me a loyal follower.  I’m just adding in the data point(s) that this old shorai I’ve got is also in that age range, experienced a couple of the “too far gone” near-death experiences (voltage dropped to below the normally recoverable range due to issues on the KTM) early on, but not only is it not dead but its cranking the V11 longer and harder than any battery I’ve used…..All much to my surprise.   I looked up the specs on it, and sure enough it indicates more CCA than the equivalent odyssey (no surprise, given the nature of the 2 different chemistry/techs), but i figured it would die fast given its age & abuse, and lack of amp-hr, which just didn’t happen.  Weird, in a good way, and not really sure what to conclude from that. 

As another data point in line with the title of this thread, I did last year remove a cheap-O lithium battery from another of my (larger cc) bikes, one that I inherited from the previous owner of the bike.  The brand… hmm…. I’ll think of it.  I think it was 3 letters (AMG maybe?), and shows to be about half the price of the usual higher end lithium batteries.  When i removed it, it was just shy of 7 yrs old. It got no special treatment, spent the winters on a 2a lithium specified tender (For better or worse?), and it did experience the bad trait of barely performing in cold winter conditions (barely cranked the bike when down around 0 degrees C).  But other than that it performed fine.  It just spooked me when I’d go to start the bike in cold conditions, and was getting old, so i replaced it.  The new lithium battery i put in cranks the bike really well in the cold (EarthX)… so far very good, but it’s new.