idle issue

[audiomick]

If you can't find a specific reference, look at page 30 of this version of the workshop book under "standard values".

https://guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/1100/V11_1999-2003_Atelier(Compil-GB-D-NL).pdf

If the value is not specifically mentioned, it is fair to assume that the values there apply. And remember: the bolts on the valve covers don't hold the wheels on. They just have to be "tight enough".

[docc]

And easy to overtighten, leading to gasket failure and thread destruction. Don't ask me how I know . . . 

[mikev]

thanks for that link, turns out the workshop manual I purchased is missing those pages somehow.  

[pete roper]

I'm imagining that it's fairly warm now where you are being high summer? Being, (Principally) an air cooled motor it will dump heat less effectively if the environment it's operating in is warmer. Hotter engine? More expansion, and on the old 2V lump the valves *Grow* more than the head and rocker support casting so the valve clearance will close up.

This is exacerbated if the motor has been working hard and then the bike slows down so it is no longer travelling as fast through its cooling medium. A condition called heat soak back occurs where the head may actually heat up more when the vehicle slows even though the engine is doing less work. The result is that all the clearance can be taken up by expansion so there is none in the valve train. This means that firstly the valves, usually the exhausts as they run a lot hotter, get held slightly off their seats. At higher engine speeds this makes little difference to the engine's ability to run but at idle enough of the charge may be able to escape through the lifted valve to lower compression to the point that the mixture is incombustible leading to an erratic idle or stalling. Secondly, with no clearance in the valve train the tappet will 'Ride' the cam making it impossible for oil to get between the tappet foot and the cam lobe at any point during its rotation. The effects of this can be dire with rapid damage occurring to both cam and tappet.

In this case I'll lay odds on the valve clearances being too tight. Regardless of what they are set at I'd suggest checking them using feeler gauges as a 'Go/No-Go' inspection and whatever they are set at just increase the gap by 2 thou. If the problem goes away, and I reckon it will, you can call it good for now.

Get a pair of Valpolini rocker cover gaskets as well to save yourself some heartache down the track and remember the piston reaches TDC twice during the engine's 720 degree cycle and you want to set the valves at TDC compression. Not overlap.

[mikev]

Yes, its a bit warm here.  Not Florida or Las Vegas warm but its pretty warm.

Tonight after dinner, I removed both plugs, took off the left valve cover and the flywheel spy hole cover.  My friend and I struggled to see TDC marks on flywheel by turning the rear wheel, probably in too low a gear.  Sadly, we totally failed to see either the S or D mark.  Could not spin the flywheel slow enough consistently for a complete revolution.  Maybe spinning the alternator is an easier way to find them?  We tried guesstimating TDC by looking at the piston come up in the left spark plug hole and honestly, I do think the gaps are tight, because I was never able to get the .004 gauge in any kind of gap on either intake or exhaust.   There may be a gap, I just wasn't able to detect it.

It was getting late so we gave up and I put everything back together.  As I did, I described the symptoms I had noticed to him, loosing the neutral light and the choke not really working so well now and he said it sounds electrical, so I pulled the seat, replaced the two relays I had not swapped out and started pulling fuses.  The 30 amp fuse was blown.  I got to Autozone just in the nick of time to buy some replacements.  Sure enough, after replacing the fuse, when I tried starting it, the neutral light worked again and choke was responsive, and the bike idled as usual. 

Will need to revisit the valve adjustments some time soon.  Thank you all for the constructive comments.  

[pete roper]

It doesn't have a choke. It has a fast idle lever and it's purely mechanical and would not be affected by a blown fuse.

I don't believe thatV11's have either TDC marks or 'S' and 'D' timing marks as ignition and injection are controlled by the ECU with the triggering function being done by a missing tooth on the tone wheel on the camshaft. To find TDC use the rear wheel and fifth gear to get close and then just pry the teeth of the ring gear through the inspection hole to get the piston as close as possible. A few degrees either way makes no odds. All you have to do is make sure both tappets are on the base circles of their respective cam lobes.

[docc]

41 minutes ago, pete roper said:

It doesn't have a choke. It has a fast idle lever and it's purely mechanical and would not be affected by a blown fuse.

I don't believe thatV11's have either TDC marks or 'S' and 'D' timing marks as ignition and injection are controlled by the ECU with the triggering function being done by a missing tooth on the tone wheel on the camshaft. To find TDC use the rear wheel and fifth gear to get close and then just pry the teeth of the ring gear through the inspection hole to get the piston as close as possible. A few degrees either way makes no odds. All you have to do is make sure both tappets are on the base circles of their respective cam lobes.

True about the High Idle Lever on the V11 not being a "choke." It only raises the idle speed based on how it is adjusted (cable and high idle cam engagement). The V11 mapping enriches the mixture every start-up for 4,000+ revolutions, (regardless of engine or ambient temperature: every start-up).

These V11 do have 'S' and 'D' flywheel marks to index TDC for the 'left/S' and 'right/D' cylinders.

Gotta love @Chuck's Eye-talian looking from the right side inspection hole:

D = Dis side / S =S'not dis side

*Translation:

[D= This side/ S= Not this side ]

[mikev]

8 hours ago, pete roper said:

To find TDC use the rear wheel and fifth gear to get close and then just pry the teeth of the ring gear through the inspection hole to get the piston as close as possible. A few degrees either way makes no odds. All you have to do is make sure both tappets are on the base circles of their respective cam lobes.

Not where I got the wrong name for that "fast idle" lever, the PO called it a "choke" maybe, or just my own novice error.  Shifting the bike while it was on the stand didn't seem too easy and it was hard to tell which gear we were in.  I was thinking I could manually move the flywheel with a screw driver or something.  Will try the valve adjustment again in daylight when I have plenty of time.  After reexamining some photos of parts in there, I wonder if we weren't looking too far left and not at the flywheel per se.  Might need a bendy light probe to see further in the hole.  TDC compression is when piston is at maximum height, correct?

[pete roper]

TDC compression is when, if the motor was running, the ignition was about to light the flame.

Not being rude but do you understand how the cycle of a 'Four Stroke' engine works? Nobody is born knowing this and there is no shame in saying you haven't a clue as there are loads of folks who will be willing to help you understand if you don't.

Without this basic understanding though there is a good chance you will screw something up badly so please. If you don't understand? Swallow your pride and say so.

I'm sure that whatever you do for a living would be complete anaethma to me because I'm a spud thick motorbike mechanic so don't be afraid, nobody will laugh at you. Well not unless you nave a neck-beard and pervy socks but if you did you'd be riding a BMW not a Guzzi V11.

[mikev]

 

26 minutes ago, pete roper said:

do you understand how the cycle of a 'Four Stroke' engine works?

I definitely need remedial education on motorcycle mechanics.  If you have any recommendations please let me know.  It would be nice to have someone nearby to show me the ropes of decent tune up so I don't screw up anything.

26 minutes ago, pete roper said:

TDC compression is when, if the motor was running, the ignition was about to light the flame.

Ok, when piston is at its lowest point, Air intake and fuel in combustion chamber.

[pete roper]

Errr. No. 

I'm about to go to sleep. Let's revisit this in the morning.

[GuzziMoto]

TDC for valve adjustment is when both intake and exhaust valves are closed and the piston is at top dead center. Being a four stoke engine, the piston hits TDC twice for every combustion cycle. The other time the piston hits TDC is when the intake and exhaust valves are open during overlap. So, piston at the top with both valves shut is when you set the valve clearance (as Pete said, you just have to be close on that). If the piston is at the top and neither valve has any clearance odds are you are at the wrong TDC and you do not want to set the valve clearances there.

The term "choke" has become generic, engines mostly do no use "chokes" any longer. A true "choke" covered the intake to restrict air going into the engine. First came enrichener circuits that didn't restrict air as a "choke" does,  instead they added extra fuel. That is what you would have, for example, on most motorcycle carburetors. The fuel injected V11 uses something even simpler, a fast idle lever that simply opens the throttle slightly to allow the engine to idle fast. It is purely mechanical in function, opening the throttle by mechanically acting on the throttlebody itself.

[LowRyter]

22 hours ago, mikev said:

Maybe this is a novice question, but what changed during my ride?  If the valves are too tight why did the bike run ok since October and then change on Sunday mid-ride?

I re-read the valve adjustment thread and feel *comfortable enough* with step 6 to check and adjust the valves.  Remove flywheel inspector, get to TDC, check the gaps.

 

I would guess heat and wear coupled with the tight clarences.  

 

Here's a hint for the future.  Once you find TDC on "D" side ("dis-side", rider's right).  Mark the alternator fin at the top, like noon on a clock.  The "S" side ("s'not-this side", rider's left), the mark will be at 3 o'clock when turn the alternator nut.  If you get no clearance with the feeler gauge, go around another full turn.   Once you have the "D" done, go around a full turn then a quarter turn to the 3 o'clock. 

I'd also check the TPS and clean the relay connections, just because.

[mikev]

found this thread while researching this more.  we were getting closer than I thought to TDC last night using a modified "straw" method.

 

[mikev]

found this too, not the same bike but process looks similar.