Intake rubber boots: no lip on the pipe to prevent slippage?

[80CX100]

1 hour ago, audiomick said:

yes, I know about that one. Here, the spray of choice is brake cleaner. Makes sense to me, as it is extremely volatile.

I don't think it's widely known, but heating or burning brake cleaner fluid/spray in any form can be extremely toxic.

I've read of welders, that have died in poorly ventilated areas;from working on metal that had been prepped & cleaned with brake fluid.

I think a safer option might be "ether" we call it quick start here. I "think" it will work and it's safe.

fwiw idk

[audiomick]

Yes, ether would work.

 

But getting back to the brake cleaner; are we talking about the same thing? I mean this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_cleaner

not anything that chemically has anything to do with brake fluid.

Incidentally, that Wiki article looks like an automatic translation of the German Wiki aricle on the subject

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsenreiniger

but that is a bit beside the point, I think.

The stuff I mean is very nasty. Agressive, no doubt poisonous, you don't want too much of it on your skin or to be breathing it in too much, but it is hydrocarbons. That means the by-products of burning it must be similar to exhaust gases, i.e. not exactly healthy, but mostly CO, CO2 and water.

Apart from that, I can't see how the stuff I mean could be a danger to a welder, because the point of it is that it evaporates and leaves absolutely no residue. By the time the welder gets on to the part, there should be absolutely nothing left to burn.

 

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

[80CX100]

2 hours ago, audiomick said:

Yes, ether would work.

 

But getting back to the brake cleaner; are we talking about the same thing? I mean this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_cleaner

not anything that chemically has anything to do with brake fluid.

Incidentally, that Wiki article looks like an automatic translation of the German Wiki aricle on the subject

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsenreiniger

but that is a bit beside the point, I think.

The stuff I mean is very nasty. Agressive, no doubt poisonous, you don't want too much of it on your skin or to be breathing it in too much, but it is hydrocarbons. That means the by-products of burning it must be similar to exhaust gases, i.e. not exactly healthy, but mostly CO, CO2 and water.

Apart from that, I can't see how the stuff I mean could be a danger to a welder, because the point of it is that it evaporates and leaves absolutely no residue. By the time the welder gets on to the part, there should be absolutely nothing left to burn.

 

If I'm missing something, please let me know.

I don't recall the specific chemical or compound in the brake cleaner that became so toxic when heated,,,,, possibly ends with "ene" idk.

I had been researching the dangers associated with heating galvanized metal(zinc iirc) and stumbled across a discussion on a forum comprised of welders & blacksmiths.

There were quite a few posters who knew welders personally who had died or gotten very sick from the fumes.

One of the apparently accepted methods for cleaning off the brake cleaner and making it safer to weld was wiping it off with acetone first,,, 

I've worked with acetone, I know it's nasty stuff,,,, scary to think that professional welders considered it safer to work with than brake cleaner.

fwiw

 

[p6x]

11 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

possibly ends with "ene" idk

Possibly "Toluene"?

[80CX100]

3 hours ago, p6x said:

Possibly "Toluene"?

Iirc Toulene may have been part of the mix, idk,I'm not sure. 

At the time I was considering taking up welding,,, but after reading some of the tragedies;

I chose to tempt the reaper in other ways. 

fwiw

 

[GuzziMoto]

It is, as I recall, the chemical that the lack of makes some brake fluid "non-chlorinated". You can use non-chlorinated brake fluid when welding. But do not use the non non-chlorinated brake fluid for welding applications.

I assume it is some form of chlorine that is in standard brake fluid. They refer to it as chlorinated solvents. Whatever that is. But the chlorinated solvents can breakdown and become phosgene gas under the heat of welding. Phosgene gas is super poisonous. Can be very bad.

 

[p6x]

4 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

Iirc Toulene may have been part of the mix, idk,I'm not sure. 

At the time I was considering taking up welding,,, but after reading some of the tragedies;

I chose to tempt the reaper in other ways. 

fwiw

 

It may have been Benzene; Not toluene.

 

Quote

Toluene is now often used as a substitute for benzene, for instance as a fuel additive. The solvent-properties of the two are similar, but toluene is less toxic and has a wider liquid range. Toluene is also processed into benzene.^[68]

I remember that when doing some of the in-situ analysis during oil sampling, we used Benzene and we had to wear protective gear to handle it. In any case, we always were around dangerous chemicals, including mercury.

[80CX100]

3 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

It is, as I recall, the chemical that the lack of makes some brake fluid "non-chlorinated". You can use non-chlorinated brake fluid when welding. But do not use the non non-chlorinated brake fluid for welding applications.

I assume it is some form of chlorine that is in standard brake fluid. They refer to it as chlorinated solvents. Whatever that is. But the chlorinated solvents can breakdown and become phosgene gas under the heat of welding. Phosgene gas is super poisonous. Can be very bad.

 

@audiomick @p6x

 

Re the poisonous gas created by welding & heat; Guzzimoto has it right it was Phosgene gas;it's probably a typo, but it's created by heating certain types of brake cleaner not fluid.

There's a lot of info out there on it's history,toxicity & people who have accidently succumbed to it. 

 

[p6x]

52 minutes ago, 80CX100 said:

@audiomick @p6x

 

Re the poisonous gas created by welding & heat; Guzzimoto has it right it was Phosgene gas;it's probably a typo, but it's created by heating certain types of brake cleaner not fluid.

There's a lot of info out there on it's history,toxicity & people who have accidently succumbed to it. 

 

In my line of work, we had to deal with H2s, or Hydrogen Sulfide. But nothing to do with brake cleaner or welding.

[audiomick]

58 minutes ago, 80CX100 said:

Re the poisonous gas created by welding & heat; Guzzimoto has it right it was Phosgene gas;it's probably a typo, but it's created by heating certain types of brake cleaner not fluid.

Ok, that is starting to make sense.

Going back to the Wiki article:

Quote

Chlorinated brake cleaners (often sold as non-flammable)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_cleaner

in the section on "Composition".

I could see something with a chlorine base producing Phosgene when heated, although I didn't find any hard facts.

By the way, Phosgene here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene

 

However, as can be seen in the quote I included, the chlorinated brake cleaner is sometimes sold as "non-flammable". Clearly this is then not suitable for finding leaks in the intake system of a combustion engine.

The brake cleaner I was referring to, and incidently the only type I have come across, is the sort that is hydrocarbon based (see, once again, the "Composition" section of the Wiki article). That is most definiitely not "non-flammable".

[GuzziMoto]

14 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

@audiomick @p6x

 

Re the poisonous gas created by welding & heat; Guzzimoto has it right it was Phosgene gas;it's probably a typo, but it's created by heating certain types of brake cleaner not fluid.

There's a lot of info out there on it's history,toxicity & people who have accidently succumbed to it. 

 

Whoops, my bad. Everywhere I meant to type brake clean I typed brake fluid. Sometimes I am such an idiot.

[80CX100]

4 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Whoops, my bad. Everywhere I meant to type brake clean I typed brake fluid. Sometimes I am such an idiot.

I understood what you were saying,,, the more people that are aware of a possible danger,the better.

Tks very much for sharing

[GuzziMoto]

To expand on it, some are scared they can't weld something that they have used brake clean on previously. That is not the case. If you use brake clean on metal and then weld it any liquid brake clean still on the metal, or even possibly some fumes that are still hanging about (although that seems like a slim issue), will break down under the heat of welding and if it is the wrong type of brake clean it will create phosgene gas. Particularly common is small traces of liquid brake clean sitting in pores of the metal. But if you use brake clean and then thoroughly dry the part you can weld it. The key is, being sure all traces of brake clean are gone. As brake clean does not leave a residue on the part, once it has evaporated it is gone, you don't need to worry about welding a part you used brake clean on previously if the brake clean is long since evaporated.

But if you only use the non-chlorinated brake clean on metal you are going to weld, or simply skip the brake clean and use other safer solvents, you don't need to worry about it. Since the possible results of welding metal that still has liquid brake clean on it are potentially lethal it makes sense to be overly cautious. I feel this is something you can't stress enough. Better safe then sorry.