China recognizes the technical superiority of Moto Guzzis.

[Randy]

https://www.rideapart.com/news/687891/changjiang-v750-defender-sidecar-design/

[audiomick]

Yes, that turned up a week or so ago on the german forum. The consensus, after much discussion, is that it may well be the result of some business arrangement between Piaggio and Changjiang. If it isn't, I dare say Piaggio is currently disscussing legal action with their lawyers.

 

Incidentally, that article seem to be poorly researched. Firstly, the thing is called "Deffender", double-f for whatever reason. In the film at the top of the article behind Rany's link on can see the double-f very breifly on the wall behind the bike. Secondly, the quoted power figures don't correspond to other reports that I've seen. For instance:

Quote

It is not known to what extent Changjiang has adopted the technology and innards of the V-twin layout obviously copied from Moto Guzzi. Remarkably, this is not a copy of the current 850cc version from Moto Guzzi, but an engine with about 750 cubic capacity. With a 10:1 compression ratio, it is said to produce around 52 hp (38 kW) at 6,300 rpm and a maximum of 60 Nm of torque at 4,900 rpm.

Until 2020, Moto Guzzi ran the air-cooled V2 of the V7 model with 744 cubic capacity and 2 valves per cylinder, which also had 52 hp at 6,200 rpm and 60 Nm at 4,900 rpm. The 5-speed gearbox and cardan to the rear wheel also correspond to the classic models from Mandello del Lario.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

from here

https://www.motorradonline.de/enduro/changjiang-v-750-deffender-gespann-guzzi/

and Motorradonline is generally very well researched.

 

Given the similarity of those figures to the "old" V7 motor with the heron heads, I could imagine it really is a licensed copy of that motor. Moto Guzzi has retired it, after all.

[Joe]

It’s also worth noting that Moto Guzzi currently offers its full line of motorcycles for sale in China—including the V85TT. In the past, the Piaggio Group has vigorously and assiduously defended its copyrights in courts of law—including pursuing scooter designs that it felt infringed upon Vespa designs. We don’t know what’s going to happen in this case, but it might be worth keeping an eye on in the future.

   

 

[guzzler]

Interesting...

The Chinese don't recognise or abide by any International rule.

Cheers

[Lucky Phil]

China recognises the "technical superiority of Moto Guzzis"

Really? I thought it was the opposite that keeps this Forum alive. The endless quest to improve on the "lack" of technical superiority of Guzzis.

Phil

[Pressureangle]

Re-watch (or watch the first time) the original "The Italian Job" movie. It's easy to miss, but the gold they stole was Chinese gold brought to finance auto factories in Italy. Released in 1969. The Italians have been in bed with the Chinese WRT vehicles since WWII. I suspect this motorcycle will be found to be made under license to MG for the Chinese domestic market only.

[docc]

If it were licensed, why would the eagle running light look like a Wuhan bat?

 

[Pressureangle]

17 hours ago, docc said:

If it were licensed, why would the eagle running light look like a Wuhan bat?

 

"Local Market" lol hey, familiarity is a huge part of marketing. So is Nationalism.

[Speedfrog]

A sidecar isn’t something I’ve ever consider for myself and I’ve never ridden one but this is a good looking rig.

Judging only by looking at all the pictures without any other knowledge about it, it seems like a well appointed machine - except maybe for the awful looking instrument panel.

So, with its carrying capacity so much greater than a regular moto, it spurred my imagination of endless backroads camping trips following rivers through forests and mountains accompanied by the kid and the dog....

 ** Maybe I’ll get a dog first... 

[billgreenman1]

Good thing the marketing department rejected the moniker of "wet market pangolin" for the sidecar-free version....

[p6x]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:45 AM, audiomick said:

If it isn't, I dare say Piaggio is currently disscussing legal action with their lawyers

I would not think they have a leg to stand on? the architecture of the engine is not patented; or if it was, the protection is long expired.

On 9/22/2023 at 10:45 AM, audiomick said:

Firstly, the thing is called "Deffender", double-f for whatever reason

I would say to avoid any "cease and desist" as they are going to try to sell it outside of China, and "Defender" cannot be a Trademark. Remember when Ferrari wanted to name the car to commemorate the 150 years of Ferrari the F-150? well, Ford told them no way..... even if Ferrari tentatively said there were no reason anyone could mistake a Ford pickup F-150 with a Ferrari F-150....

On the subject of what China did, still do?;

To work in China, all your equipment had to be nationalized and virtually impossible to remove if you had to shut down operations. This is how they could copy absolutely everything that came through. When I worked for SINOPEC, I found that some of the equipment their Chinese contractors used were carbon copies of that same equipment that was imported back in the 80's and 90's.

In the same way, when I was living in Paris (France), you could literally see Asian looking people taking pictures of all the exposed fashion in the windows of the big brands.

They did the same in Italy with Ceramic and other artisan creations.

But china is now well on its way to do things on their own. I don't think they need much more help because the world is completely in their hands for just about everything.

Look at the masks used for C19? everybody suddenly discovered they were only made in China!!!

More preoccupying, are the aircraft spares with forged documentation to identify them as OEM, while they are not.

[Speedfrog]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:45 AM, audiomick said:

Firstly, the thing is called "Deffender", double-f for whatever reason.

A combination of Defender and Offender... 

[audiomick]

It might be, perhaps, to avoid conflict with Land Rover.

 

@p6x even if the engine design is not patented, there is, at least here in Germany, a thing called a "Musterklage". It is a kind of watered down copyright breach: if the thing looks too much like a thing that someone is already selling, you can claim damages.

I don't know any details. An acquaintance, a lawyer, told me about that. He was doing a reasonable amount of business with that sort of thing at the time.

[p6x]

Well, not only Moto Guzzi....

We also have the Ducasu KD400

https://www.moto.it/news/ducasu-dk400-dalla-cina-senza-vergogna.html

 

[p6x]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:44 PM, Speedfrog said:

A combination of Defender and Offender... 

Land Rover had a Defender if I remember well.... so perhaps....