Acceleration Enrichment Map-2004 Rosso Corsa

[Rob NZ]

Hello All

I have been following the forum for some time now but this is my first time posting.  I enjoy the forum and really appreciate the information and support.  

As you can see form my profile I have a 2004 Rosso Corsa.  It has done just over 60,000KMs and it is a nice bike to ride.

I have tuned it many times using the "decent tune up" protocol. It runs well except that every now and then it will cough when blipping and changing down and cut out.

It is stock except that some time ago I did the "Phil teardrop mods" to open up the airbox.  It still has a paper filter.  The cough and cut out issue was there before the mods and has not changed since the mods were done.

My bike has a Lamba senor.  More recently I downloaded Guzzi Diag switched off the sensor and started tuning the maps.  It's a "rabbit hole" for sure but lots of fun.  I have cured the cough by enriching the fuel map at low revs/throttle openings.  The engine also runs smoothly now when in traffic at 2k to 3K revs with no lean stumble.

The only issue is the underlying stock acceleration enrichment map which of course cuts in when you switch the Lamba sensor off.  Except for wide throttle openings at low revs the boxes in the matrix are all at 107 which I think can not be right I have modified mine but I am not sure how far I might be out because I am just tuning by "seat of pants".  

Can anybody help me with a bin of an acceleration enrichment map from a none Lamba bike which might help as a cross check/starting point?  

Thank you

Rob

 

         

 

[MartyNZ]

Have you seen this post?

 

[Rob NZ]

Hello Marty

Thank you.  No I had not seen this.  Sorry I will have a look it may just what I need!

 

 

 

[ScuRoo]

7 hours ago, Rob NZ said:

I have tuned it many times using the "decent tune up" protocol. It runs well except that every now and then it will cough when blipping and changing down and cut out.

It is stock except that some time ago I did the "Phil teardrop mods" to open up the airbox.  It still has a paper filter.  The cough and cut out issue was there before the mods and has not changed since the mods were done.

My bike has a Lamba senor.

Here’s my tip. Don’t eliminate the 15RC ECU’s closed loop ability by disabling the O2 sensor.
Do not disable the 15RC closed loop adjustability - just change the Guzzi factory installed O2 sensor which was found to be inadequate - with the Bosch improved LSH24 sensor upgrade.

I strongly advise you do this before anything else.

Years ago I too was frustrated & went searching on foreign sites for possibly overlooked solutions.

I’ll leave this translation with you from what I originally tracked down on an Italian Guzzi forum. I can’t recall how many pages were laboriously translated (literally hundreds), but eventually found this gem discussing the root problem - acted on the advice as it was both a) inexpensive b) easy (what’s not to like?) & c) made the most succinct sense - & found I’d hit the jackpot. Hiccup free 100%. Perfect.

Translating Anima Guzzista there was a highly respected Italian Guzzi mechanic (Ube) known as Motoube on Anima Guzzista forum who clearly stated the original root of the problem:  “the probe used by Guzzi corresponds to a BOSH probe which has certain characteristics corresponding to the BOSH specification "LSH15", in jargon called the LSh15 calibration curve this probe was used on cars starting from 1992/93, it was immediately seen that its sensitivity and response speed were INADEQUATE TO THE REAL CONDITIONS OF USE OF THE VEHICLE. BOSCH ran for cover and created the probe with the LSH24 calibration curve. much much faster and much much more sensitive. realize that the LSH15 probe has such a slow response time to the variation of the exhaust gases that the control unit takes a thousand or more readings of the lambda value .... the LSH24 instead has a very good sensitivity and a response time equivalent to the reading interval of the ECU.”

[Rob NZ]

Hello ScuRoo

Thank you for taking the time to respond.  Until my post I had not been on the Forum for some time due to the distractions of buying and working on my Ducati, rebuilding a tractor motor, winter and life in general! 

But I am now back working on the Guzzi tune.  I have looked at your earlier thread about the Bosch LSH 24 probe and trying one of these will be my next step. 

In passing I should say my tuning work to date has significantly improved the riding experience.  The motor is so much sharper that the gearchange now feels slick in comparison to how it was!  

I will report back when I have tried the LSH 24 probe. It might take a while.        

Thank you again.    

[LaGrasta]

Forgive me, I never messed with my V11 ECU, nor do I have a full understanding of such. I have dabbled a bit with my V7 using PowerCommander.

I'm curious, I replace my OEM sensor with https://www.ebay.com/p/1840908993, and receive quicker fuel adjustment?

[docc]

6 minutes ago, LaGrasta said:

Forgive me, I never messed with my V11 ECU, nor do I have a full understanding of such. I have dabbled a bit with my V7 using PowerCommander.

I'm curious, I replace my OEM sensor with https://www.ebay.com/p/1840908993, and receive quicker fuel adjustment?

For your V7 @LaGrasta?

(I'd be surprised if your 2003 V11 carry-over has an O2 sensor . . . ?)

[LaGrasta]

@docc I confused you? I merely meant I adjusted fuel maps for my 2010 V7 via PowerCommander and a PC, but never plugged in my V11 ever.

I've now spent some time on thread ECU limited by stock O2. I don't think I need to mess with this as I'm not experiencing any of the stated hiccups and such.

[docc]

1 minute ago, LaGrasta said:

@docc I confused you? I merely meant I adjusted fuel maps for my 2010 V7 via PowerCommander and a PC, but never plugged in my V11 ever.

I've now spent some time on thread ECU limited by stock O2. I don't think I need to mess with this as I'm not experiencing any of the stated hiccups and such.

Does your V11 have an O2 sensor? I didn't think the US V11 did, certainly not the early ones . . .

[Speedfrog]

This O2 sensor swap discussion is only relevant to machines running a 15RC ECU. 

V11 Sport US models were delivered with a 15M ECU, no CAT and no O2 sensor.

Check your ECU!

[Speedfrog]

Here is a comprehensive list of Moto Guzzi models (and others) with their respective ECU’s. 

https://www.guzzitek.org/documents/injection/ECU_MasterList_2011.pdf

[GuzziMoto]

I believe what @LaGrasta is saying is his V7 has an O2 sensor and he was wondering if that should be upgraded. I believe the answer is likely "No". The O2 sensor on his V7 is not the same sensor as was delivered on V11s that had an O2 sensor.

So, LaGrasta probably does not need to replace the O2 sensor on his V7. But if someone has a V11 with the stock O2 sensor that some came with you probably do want to upgrade the O2 sensor.

[Speedfrog]

@GuzziMoto  I think you could be right in reading into what @LaGrasta is saying.

This being under a V11 Rosso Corsa topic in a dedicated V11 forum, it takes a lot of brainpower to interpret these kind of ambiguous inquiries when no precise details are offered towards what the inquirer is exactly looking into... my little brain was telling me the inquiry was for his V11. . . 

[p6x]

On 10/17/2023 at 12:42 PM, Speedfrog said:

Check your ECU!

Is there any way to check your ECU type? the adhesive label that I see on photos is missing on mine. It has been ripped off.

[Lucky Phil]

A few things. Lambda sensors were fitted to, well most injected vehicles for a few purposes and in V11 terms none of them were to make for a particularly better riding experience. They were installed for emission and to some extent fuel economy related reasons and for CAT considerations. So at "steady state throttle settings" and a certain rpm band the O2 sensor trimmed the fuel to stio correct or whatever it's target happened to be. Generally this area was what we would call the cruise area. Steady state rpm and throttle angle. Freeway cruising in the main. The other area Lambda sensors are advantageous is for Long and short term fuel trim applications to trim the fuel system as the name suggests. So the ecu can compensate for engine wear and various other mechanical degradation and trim the main fuel maps accordingly, LTFT. It can also adjust short term fuel trim STFT to compensate for things like dirty air filters etc and also general driving habits. The STFT can be " nulled" by pulling the ecu fuse or disconnecting the battery as it's a volatile memory. Commuting will in a lot of cases influence the STFT and affect the riding/driving experience in a slightly negative way. Pulling the ECU fuse will reset this and the STFT will revert to the original zero setting and improve the engine running slightly until the trim shifts it again. It's an arguable thing but lots of people do it.  

Wide band sensors work better than the cheap narrow band sensors that's been a fact for many years. So basically the LAMBDA system in the V11 context and most earlier generation motorcycle systems were for emission related reasons combined with fuel economy not for a better riding/driving experience and in car applications for the same reason plus the afore mentioned LTFT and STFT ability because cars do a lot more miles than motorcycles generally with a lot less attentions to keeping them tuned and serviced and running well. If you have a V11 with the later 15RC ecu and Lambda fitted then simply disconnecting the Lambda and mapping the ecu will give you a nice result without the Lambda system complexity. Maybe the fuel economy will be slightly worse, not sure but then again if it's nicely mapped it will be slightly better than stock probably.

 

Phil