teslas killing Motorcyclists

[Chuck]

^^^^ We have had a model Y dual motor for almost 2 years now, and I agree. There have been a couple of instances where the car saw a problem ahead faster than I did. (!) Safety ratings are 5 star+. We just have the standard autopilot, and it is a really good (if a little overly cautious) feature. I'd *much* rather have a Tesla on autopilot following me than some brain dead texter.

Oh, and it's fast. Do I have room to safely pass? Yes, yes I do. We rented a Charger R/T when at a trip to Denver this summer. Big V8, paddle shifters, sounded bitchin. The Tesla would take it.. (shrug) It's eating me up on maintenance, though. I've had to put air in the tires once and fill the windshield washer bottle in 35,000 miles. Charging at home off peak at 9 cents per KWH is roughly $35 per month, and I'm not paying the oil barons..

I'm a fan.

[gstallons]

Since the conversation has gotten lighter........... there was an article (back in the 70s) about  this guy that bought a "conversion" van w/all the accessories , options , etc. After pulling out on the interstate he turned on the cruise control , got up and went back to the mini bar to fix a drink . The rest up to the reader's imagination !

 

 

 

[Scud]

I have driven a few Teslas, but never owned one or any electric car. It seems the software issue with not seeing motorcycles at night is similar to the human issue - judging a close single tailight to be equivalent of a pair of taillights far away. With that in mind - it seems that we can do is either avoid driving at night or take steps to make ourselves more visible - more lights, reflectors, high-vis clothes etc.  If I'm riding the freeway at night, it';s mostly my Stelvio, which is an enormous barge of a motorcycle to begin with, but I have added quite a bit of reflective tape to the back and sides of the saddle bags.

As of the driver- assist features. Our 4-wheel vehicles have them, but not the extent of auto-pilot. I like the Subaru's lane-keeping warnings, and the Bronco's adaptive cruise control. My F250's collision warning is a bit over-protective for my taste. It has gone off on tight curves when everyone is in their respective lanes.

The more that cars have these features, the more we are protected against driver inattention, but on the flip side of the same coin, the more sense of false security could be provided to drivers who think they don't have to pay attention.

Safety first. Stay vigilant. Don't outride your eyesight. ATGATT. Keep the shiny side up... and all the other aphorisms.

[audiomick]

3 hours ago, Scud said:

 the ... sense of false security ... to drivers who think they don't have to pay attention.

That is what worries me. I expect the systems all work all well as can be expected from the state of the art. But they are not up to "completely autonomous" yet, and I see the danger of people relying on them as if they were.

 

Aphorisms:

"Don't ride faster than your gaurdian angel can fly".

[footgoose]

Now lets talk about how each one of us would feel if rear ended by an autonomous vehicle. Or a loved one. Bring it home. I'll start, I would be pissed.

"Statistically safer" is subjective. May be, maybe not a stretch, but you all recall the 737 issues of a few years ago. A maneuvering system so smart even (apparently) at least two/4 pilots were outsmarted, killing a few hundred. Yes I know, lack of training was blamed. Tell it to the loved ones. 

Just making the (my) point. Everything innovative, high tech and bloody awesome, doesn't always result in the best interests of 'some' of humanity. I for one don't want to be part of the experiment while they perfect their latest gadget.

When you read Kindoy's post and think 'that should not have happened' you were 100% correct.

EV's are fine*. AI is a potential disaster.

I will now claim age related autonomy

*much more to this. can't/wont speak to it.

watch yer 6

[Lucky Phil]

I think Teslas have their place like all EV's just not in my driveway. When owning a car or motorcycle for that matter becomes the same to me as my fridge, washing machine or vacuum cleaner then I'll be in the market for an EV.

No automated system to date is perfect and requires human oversight. The 737 NG's I specialised in and did many, many cockpit hours in would at top of descent under autopilot control overspeed the aero six times out of ten unless the pilot intervened. The interface between the autopilot and auto throttle used to get it all wrong and it was never resolved to my knowledge. The Active cruise on my cars is the same, good but not perfect and require monitoring. The issue is the operators, the systems will never be perfect. The worlds been made so safe now all the stupid people aren't naturally culled from the herd anymore and end up taking out the smart people. The future looks promising

 

Phil  

[guzzler]

This is the reason we won't be buying any more new cars...

I can't stand the crap they have on them now let alone this level of intrusion!

Cheers

Ps still reckon getting the idiots who just can't ride/drive off the roads is better than trying to dumb down everything so they can play too...

There are buses and trains for these imbeciles!

But there isn't a politician with a testicle to implement it... better to just preach about zero road tolls and looking like they give a shit

 

 

[guzzler]

Bugger, the vid didn't attach...

 

[MartyNZ]

I've had a new battery electric car for the last 6 months. It has all the safety features to qualify for ANCAP rating 5, and I don't regret buying it. It should engage auto braking for a bike (if I don't see it) but I'm not going to test it.

Some of the critics of my choice say things that have the same tone as comments I've heard through the decades.

"Tubeless tires? No thanks".

"Multi-grade oil? Not for me".

"Don't like auto transmission, I want to be in control".

"Don't like seat belts, I want...". 

So yeah, I like a modern car.

Even stranger are the criticisms of an electric car. 

"They catch fire". -Less often than ICE cars.

"We're going to run out of Lithium" -It's 3rd element in the periodic table. There's shit-tons of it around.

"It's mined with slave labor". -Australia is currently producing 1/2 of the world's supply, and those miners are extremely well paid.

"Lithium batteries can't be recycled ". - obvious nonsense. 

Yes I have a 20 year old Guzzi, but I like modern stuff.

 

[Joe]

On 11/23/2023 at 7:19 AM, Chuck said:

^^^^ We have had a model Y dual motor for almost 2 years now, and I agree. There have been a couple of instances where the car saw a problem ahead faster than I did. (!) Safety ratings are 5 star+. We just have the standard autopilot, and it is a really good (if a little overly cautious) feature. I'd *much* rather have a Tesla on autopilot following me than some brain dead texter.

Oh, and it's fast. Do I have room to safely pass? Yes, yes I do. We rented a Charger R/T when at a trip to Denver this summer. Big V8, paddle shifters, sounded bitchin. The Tesla would take it.. (shrug) It's eating me up on maintenance, though. I've had to put air in the tires once and fill the windshield washer bottle in 35,000 miles. Charging at home off peak at 9 cents per KWH is roughly $35 per month, and I'm not paying the oil barons..

I'm a fan.

Well said Chuck, agree 💯 

[motortouring]

On 11/23/2023 at 2:02 PM, gstallons said:

Since the conversation has gotten lighter........... there was an article (back in the 70s) about  this guy that bought a "conversion" van w/all the accessories , options , etc. After pulling out on the interstate he turned on the cruise control , got up and went back to the mini bar to fix a drink . The rest up to the reader's imagination !

 

 

 

That must be an urban legend.

Just like drying the chiwawa in the microwave 😉

[motortouring]

Anyway, over-reliance (is that correct English) is a serious concern for driver assistant systems. 

And using the right terminology for functions is a first step to get better understanding.

There are by now quite some research results on this topic. More uniformity in name function and how to operate would make it possible to have more generic education for drivers. Now it is up to the sales person and the attention of the buyer if this item comes up at all.

I would assume that the camera system has some sort of a verification of the reliability op the perception. Night-time is perhaps a more challenging condition. Is a driver aware of this?

Anyway a sad thing. Rear ending without a clear cause is a rare accident over here.

[LowRyter]

I hope to live long enough to buy an EV someday.  

[p6x]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:23 PM, footgoose said:

Yes I know, lack of training was blamed. Tell it to the loved ones. 

It is actually much darker than training.

The MCAS was kept hidden from regulations and manuals as the aircraft manufacturer involved was trying to market the aircraft to only be another variation of the line, not requiring any recertification or training.

After the first accident, the aircraft manufacturer disclosed the existence of the MCAS and issued some directives to mitigate its influence. But it did not prevent the second accident. In this case, the involved airline indicated the pilots could not regain control even when carrying out the procedure.

Long story short, the MCAS relied on a single AoA sensor which was the major gamble taken.

Anyway back to car's auto pilots.

I don't know if you heard, but Cruise's driverless Taxis have completely shut down operation because of an incident that contributed to the injuries of a pedestrian. The pedestrian was hit by another car, and landed underneath the Cruise's driverless car. At first the Cruise car immediately stopped. But then it resumed course and dragged the injured pedestrian stuck underneath it on a distance of about 20' before stopping again.

Initially, Cruise only provided the video showing the Taxi stopping with the pedestrian underneath the front end. Failing the disclose the part showing the Taxi resuming motion.

As a result, Cruise has been shut down from operating, and the CEO resigned.

Bottom line, there always be situations which have never been hard coded. There always are going to be software bugs each time there is an update. This is how it works. You always break a feature that was working perfectly before.

As we progress, more and more features are going to be incorporated, but at the price of what we have already seen happening since the introduction of auto-pilots on cars.

We are basically guinea pigs. Car makes are advertising auto-pilots as non autonomous, but it does not matter to some of the drivers.

This is why I am happy with my driver's car; it has zero electronic features, no automatic gearbox, making it virtually impossible to drive while operating your phone.

This is also my main argument on discussions about motorcyclists being reckless. I can't ride and text.

 

 

 

[guzzler]

I enjoy riding and driving, don't want to outsource any of the pleasure of it to a computer......!