teslas killing Motorcyclists

[footgoose]

6 minutes ago, guzzler said:

I enjoy riding and driving, don't want to outsource any of the pleasure of it to a computer......!

but you could be having wine and cheese on that ride

  from 2018.

 

 

[guzzler]

Mein Gott....

Best left in the realm of science fiction as far as I'm concerned.

Ha ha I am fond of a good Shiraz and a cheese platter but best enjoyed at Wine o clock either in front of the fire in winter or on the balcony in summer....

Cheers 

[gstallons]

I wish I knew for sure but people are stupid so I am not sure . It was in a clip News of the Weird by Chuck Grizzard

[GuzziMoto]

We (the wife and I) are gearheads and love old school motorcycles like our Guzzi's. We also have a pretty extreme Jeep, a true dinosaur. But on the other side of the equation we have an EV. No self driving but it does have all the standard blind spot detection and front / rear collision warning. I like EV's, and I like safety features. I like TPMS sensors. But the issue in the original story here is someone mistaking Tesla's "Auto-Pilot" feature for an actual auto-pilot, it seems. It isn't that the Tesla was "unsafe", unless you count that it allowed the driver to operate it without actually paying attention, then it was "unsafe". It was that someone thought it was fully capable of driving itself when it is not. That seems to happen on a regular basis, often injuring or killing the idiot who made that mistake. The sad thing here is it wasn't the idiot that paid the price for his stupidity, it was a motorcyclist who, as far as we can tell, was just riding down the road on his Harley minding his own business. That could have been any of us (except for the part about it being a Harley), it was just a matter of dumb luck as to who it ended up being. The core issue here was two fold, Tesla markets its driver assist as an "Auto-Pilot", which it isn't (and they tell you it isn't) and the driver of the Tesla didn't safely operate his motor vehicle, instead thinking the Tesla could safely operate itself without his input (it can't). The end result is a motorcyclist is dead and both Tesla and this idiot should be held responsible but given the way things are I worry that neither will be held accountable in a meaningful way.

[gstallons]

Tesla (for everyone's understanding) should send an e-mail to every Tesla owner stating that "this is NOT a robotic self thinking vehicle and the driver is fully responsible at all times" and make sure it is acknowledged. One life is not worth the stupidity of others.

[Chuck]

Even the "standard" autopilot is disabled at delivery. The owner has to toggle it on as they are setting up the car, and it clearly says BETA. All the features (driving mode, seat position, mirrors, climate control, speeds in autopilot +- the speed limit, etc. etc. are stored on the various driver's profile.  You have to set all that up for each driver, and it is done automatically as soon as the car recognizes their phone as they open the driver's door.

I don't know what else they could do..

[Joe]

3 hours ago, gstallons said:

Tesla (for everyone's understanding) should send an e-mail to every Tesla owner stating that "this is NOT a robotic self thinking vehicle and the driver is fully responsible at all times" and make sure it is acknowledged. One life is not worth the stupidity of others.

I sent a story to Josh and Docc about a motorcyclists speeding and lane swapping and running into the back of a Tesla on a highway in Florida. The Model Y ramped up the speed at the last moments as the guy ran into the back glass of the car. The driver came to a controlled stop and the motorcycle (probably uninsured) rider jumped out hurt but alive and got onto the back of his buddies bike and initially ran from the seen. 

All of the same safety systems this thread has demonized in this case saved the guys life, most importantly the car seeing the motorcycle rider approaching at a much faster pace, so the Tesla accelerated to lessen the impact, before slowing back down, probably saving his life. The motorcycle was at fault so the safety technology of the Tesla in this case is seen as welcomed. "Lets not get wrapped around the axle" or stuck thinking that Tesla's are unsafe on a constant diatribe, because they aren't unsafe, period. 

[GuzziMoto]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

I sent a story to Josh and Docc about a motorcyclists speeding and lane swapping and running into the back of a Tesla on a highway in Florida. The Model Y ramped up the speed at the last moments as the guy ran into the back glass of the car. The driver came to a controlled stop and the motorcycle (probably uninsured) rider jumped out hurt but alive and got onto the back of his buddies bike and initially ran from the seen. 

All of the same safety systems this thread has demonized in this case saved the guys life, most importantly the car seeing the motorcycle rider approaching at a much faster pace, so the Tesla accelerated to lessen the impact, before slowing back down, probably saving his life. The motorcycle was at fault so the safety technology of the Tesla in this case is seen as welcomed. "Lets not get wrapped around the axle" or stuck thinking that Tesla's are unsafe on a constant diatribe, because they aren't unsafe, period. 

I am not sure this thread is as full of people calling Tesla's unsafe as you seem to think it is. I have not called Tesla's unsafe in this thread. But I have pointed out that Tesla's "Auto-Pilot" is not a full self driving auto-pilot as some seem to think it is, and I also am aware that their "Auto-Pilot" seems to have issues with things like motorcycles, cyclists, and pedestrians, in some situations. I like safety features, but there are some fundamental flaws it seems with Tesla and their driver aids that allows people to put all the responsibility of driving on the "Auto-Pilot" system and then when a limitation of that system is exceeded the driver is not in a position to prevent something bad from happening. That would not be such a big deal if no one was getting hurt, or even if only the driver of the Tesla was getting hurt. Unfortunately this moments are resulting in innocent bystanders being hurt or killed.

I had an episode a couple months ago where I was getting off the main road on an exit ramp. The ramp went up a hill, then at the top of the hill there was a traffic circle where halfway around the traffic circle the road I was getting on went. There were cars in front of me. I was on the left hand side of the exit ramp, slowing down as to match my pace with the cars in front of me. Suddenly I realized there was a car pulling up next to me on my right like I wasn't there. At first I thought the driver was just being a bad driver, but I realized she had no idea what was going on, she did not seem to be paying attention. I honked at her and waved to her to get her attention, she saw me then but seemed confused as to why I was along side of her. It was later I realized that she was probably relying on her car to drive, and she really had no idea she almost ran me over.  She probably still doesn't know she almost ran me over. No doubt the safety features her car has are over all a good thing. But for me that day they almost got me injured or killed.

Improved safety features on todays cars are a good idea, a step forward. But if they aren't designed to maintain the involvement of the driver they need to be better and smarter then they currently are. Or they can be designed to maintain the involvement of the driver. That seems to be where Tesla falls short, their systems aren't  good enough but they also do not require the involvement of the driver. From a legal perspective, if a car (any brand) is being driven by itself and it injures or kills people who is responsible?

[Joe]

 https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_au/GUID-20F2262F-CDF6-408E-A752-2AD9B0CC2FD6.html

Autopilot Features

This topic describes how to enable and use the following driver assistance features.

• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control: Like traditional cruise control, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control maintains a set driving speed. However, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control also slows down or accelerates Model 3 as needed to maintain the following distance from the vehicle in front of you. While Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is engaged, you are still responsible for steering Model 3 (see Traffic-Aware Cruise Control).
• Autosteer: Like Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, Autosteer maintains a set speed (if there is not a vehicle in front of you) or a set following distance (if there is a vehicle in front of you). In addition, Autosteer detects lane markings, road edges, and the presence of vehicles and objects to intelligently keep Model 3 in its driving lane (see Autosteer).
  Note

  Autosteer is a BETA feature.
• Auto Lane Change: When you engage a turn signal while Autosteer is active, Auto Lane Change moves Model 3 into the adjacent lane in the direction indicated by the turn signal (see Auto Lane Change).
• Navigate on Autopilot: Navigate on Autopilot builds on the features of Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and Autosteer. While Autosteer is active, Navigate on Autopilot allows Model 3 to suggest and, if configured, automatically change lanes to pass other vehicles and follow the navigation route (see Navigate on Autopilot).
  Note

  Navigate on Autopilot is a BETA feature.

Traffic-Aware Cruise Control and Autosteer use information from the cameras on Model 3 to detect lane markings, road edges, and other vehicles and road users around Model 3.

CAUTION

Before using Autopilot features, ensure that all cameras are clean and free of obstructions (see Cleaning a Camera). Dirty cameras and sensors (if equipped), as well as environmental conditions such as rain and faded lane markings, affect Autopilot performance.

CAUTION

It is your responsibility to familiarize yourself with the limitations of Autopilot and the situations in which driver intervention may be needed. For more information, see Limitations and Warnings.

 

[guzzler]

Autopilot....

That phrase about giving fools enough rope and they'll hang themselves springs to mind.

[Speedfrog]

BETA ==> Better

For some, no need to go beyond that, read, understand and absorb the fine print . . . 

Human nature, I believe there is no more mishandling of the smart EV technology than there is of the old analog one.

When it comes to any vehicle, even if most people are aware of the fact, nowhere does it ever says your vehicle can be turned into a weapon and destroy life.

[audiomick]

14 hours ago, Speedfrog said:

... I believe there is no more mishandling of the smart EV technology than there is of the old analog one.

You could well be right there.

[p6x]

19 hours ago, Joe said:

Before using Autopilot features, ensure that all cameras are clean and free of obstructions (see Cleaning a Camera). Dirty cameras and sensors (if equipped), as well as environmental conditions such as rain and faded lane markings, affect Autopilot performance.

How many of us, do a thorough check of their vehicles before using them?

In my company, we had to actually verify the car before each drive, no matter how short. Of course we had to record it in a log book, later record it electronically. Invariably, it can lead to rubber stamping. But when you are about to drive into the desert to reach an drilling rig, when there were no GPS systems, no Satellite phones, you never wanted to gamble on your life.

I still check the basics before I go anywhere, starting with tire pressure. We do not have pressure indicators on our old motorcycles, old cars. This should be the very minimum I think.

Agreed, since TPMS is standard now, it also helps drivers to not forget.

I still take the dipstick out of my cars to check oil level, from habit I guess.

But all the modern technology aims at making you less aware of the few compulsory checks you can't ignore, Including checking your mirrors before you change lane or you turn.

In today's world, I do not even fully comprehend what "learning to drive" means any longer. I guess it is just a matter of being able to put the vehicle in motion?

[p6x]

This is a very sad illustration of the reason why people should never drive (a lot) faster than the traffic ahead of them.

This video clip has been released by the German police for education purposes. The motorcyclist is legally going at 300 km/h, however a vehicle in front of him failed to notice him prior to changing lane at 120 km/h.

The motorcyclist can't avoid the collision. The narrative said he survived but was seriously injured. I inferred that he did make it; if not, the police would not have posted the video.

Would a Tesla's driving assistant be able to detect the incoming motorcycle at this speed? I don't know, but I doubt it.

When we drive our cars, we usually only give a quick glance at our rear view mirror. This accident proves that when difference in speeds are consistant, glancing is not sufficient. You need to probably scrute for several seconds. Last but not least, your rear view mirrors should not show the side of your car, but as outward as possible, to minimize the blind spot. Another question I have, how far does the radar detection goes for those that have the blind spot warning on their mirrors on on their HUD? I don't think it goes that far behind...

Because of the way "X/Twitter" works, you may have to copy the link and paste it in your web browser to see the video. It is only 20 seconds long.

https://twitter.com/PolizeiMFR/status/1729123505353167305

[Speedfrog]

I am never on higher alert than when going 60/70 mph on the freeway commuter lane with a line of cars in the adjacent lane at a near standstill...