Shock fitment differences

[alannn]

Looking at Hyperpro catalog, they show the same emulsion shock, type 460, model MG11-0AA, for many different V11 models, from 1998-2005. But for their type 461 ("hose reservoir"), model MG11-1AA, they show fitment for V11 SPORT, 1998 and up, only.

https://hyperpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/HYPERPRO-Shockabsorbers.pdf

Do short frame and long frame V11's require different rear shocks? In a nutshell, I want their type 461 on a 2002 Lemans. What additional hardware is needed to fit an external reservoir in the same location as the Ohlin equipped V11's beside the left porkchop?

Final question, what is the extra shock length required for raising rear to match the Ohlin equipped bike spec?

 

 

[guzzler]

G'day mate

I have the Hyperpro 460 Emulsion shock on my 01 Sport and think it's same size as standard.

I sometimes wish that I'd ordered it with the optional length adjustment ability to enable the rear to be raised by the 8mm of the Ohlins, but I'm pretty happy with how she handles as is with forks raised in triples by 8mm.

.It's been a while since I did this so will leave it to wiser heads to prevail on that and fitment to your LeMans. 

Whichever way you go I'm pretty sure you'll be happy with the Hyperpro units... I know I am!

Cheers 

 

[Lucky Phil]

4 hours ago, alannn said:

Looking at Hyperpro catalog, they show the same emulsion shock, type 460, model MG11-0AA, for many different V11 models, from 1998-2005. But for their type 461 ("hose reservoir"), model MG11-1AA, they show fitment for V11 SPORT, 1998 and up, only.

https://hyperpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/HYPERPRO-Shockabsorbers.pdf

Do short frame and long frame V11's require different rear shocks? In a nutshell, I want their type 461 on a 2002 Lemans. What additional hardware is needed to fit an external reservoir in the same location as the Ohlin equipped V11's beside the left porkchop?

Final question, what is the extra shock length required for raising rear to match the Ohlin equipped bike spec?

 

 

Just buy the top of the range Wilbers shock. Adjustable everything. H/lo speed compression, hydraulic preload adjuster, low speed rebound and shock length. The preload adjuster and reservoir fit the std Sachs mount.

Phil 

[Tomchri]

Wilbers 641-0519-00 Blackline on my 01 Greenie. Great schock worth the money.

Cheers Tom.

[alannn]

3 hours ago, Tomchri said:

Wilbers 641-0519-00 Blackline on my 01 Greenie. Great schock worth the money.

Cheers Tom.

Wilbers web site spells it out clearly:

641-0519-00 for the KR, short frame.

641-0519-01 for the KT, long frame.

That inspires more confidence than the listing in the Hyperpro catalog. 

Edit:

Then for the hell of it, I check the OEM parts listing which shows GU02550201 for both the short frame and long frame models. So to answer my own question, it looks like all non Ohlins V11's have the same OEM shock, GU02550201. 

So now I suspect Wilbers took the initiative to specify a longer shock for all long frame models to match the Ohlins spec. I will try to contact Wilbers to verify my wild guess.

 

[MartyNZ]

I fitted a Wilbers 641-519-01 to my 03 long frame bike. It's an easy swap. It is 5mm longer than the original Sachs Boge.

Sachs: 280.5mm center to center.

Wilbers: 285.4mm.

I only realized the extra shock length when the rear tire just touched the ground while on the maintenance stand, after I fitted the new shock and a new tire. 

[mjseymo]

Hi All, very useful info. I have a short frame and want to change the Sachs unit.  Will the extra 5mm change the seat height too? I'm short in the leg and just wanted to check. Thanks.

[Lucky Phil]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:20 AM, mjseymo said:

Hi All, very useful info. I have a short frame and want to change the Sachs unit.  Will the extra 5mm change the seat height too? I'm short in the leg and just wanted to check. Thanks.

Yes by maybe 2-3mm.

Phil

[edit: corrected by Phil in his post later in the day (six posts below):

"My 2-3mm is clearly wrong as I halved the additional shock length instead of doubling it and subtracting a bit for the shock and swingarm angle. "

[docc]

10 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

I fitted a Wilbers 641-519-01 to my 03 long frame bike. It's an easy swap. It is 5mm longer than the original Sachs Boge.

Sachs: 280.5mm center to center.

Wilbers: 285.4mm.

I only realized the extra shock length when the rear tire just touched the ground while on the maintenance stand, after I fitted the new shock and a new tire. 

I see the Öhlins shock fitted to my short frame Sport is 286mm (relative to the factory Sachs 280.5).

The change is ride height was notable, yet also affected (likely more so) by the stiffer spring and more aggressive sag settings.

[guzzler]

Aha 5mm difference!

Ha ha whichever way you go you'll end up with a better unit than the stock unit!

I was going to go Wilbers back when I changed mine out but the supplier lost the ability to supply them at the last minute.

So, we went with the Hyperpro which he could and as mentioned I'm happy with it.

Cheers 

Ps I did hum and hah about whether to go Emulsion ( basic ) or the all singing all dancing version at the time but have no regrets..

The Emulsion 460 does the job well for me. 

[GuzziMoto]

I don't think it is a one to one ratio between the shock and the rear wheels travel. I believe the rear wheel travels farther for every unit of travel at the shock. So increasing shock length 5mm should increase rear ride height by more then 5mm. How much more? I don't recall exactly. But if the ratio between shock and rear wheel is two to one that would mean an extra 5mm of shock length would lead to an increase in rear ride height of 10mm, with the corresponding increase in seat height being just slightly less then that (a guess would be 9mm).

Somewhere on this forum is a thread where we dug deep into the ratio between shock travel and rear wheel travel. The design of the rear suspension is such that the ratio between the two is not fixed, it is a varying ratio. But I don't remember the starting ratio or how much exactly it changed as the suspension went through its travel. For that I defer to someone like docc to dig up.

To my knowledge the V11 sport only came with one of two shocks, the Sachs shock or the Ohlins shock. The difference between the two is just length, with the Ohlins being a little longer as mentioned. The two shocks can be interchanged, running the Sacs shock (or a shock of the same length) would mean a slightly lower seat height and a shallower steering angle of the front forks, along with slightly less ground clearance. That would lead to slightly slower steering. Running the Ohlins shock means slightly higher seat height along with a steeper steering angle and the more aggressive steering that goes with it, as well as slightly more ground clearance. I think most around here would go with the longer shock option as it is generally accepted that the longer shock improves  steering. But perhaps the best option is an adjustable length shock that allows you to fine tune the shocks length to where you are happy with it. One that starts at the length of the Sachs shock but can be adjusted to as long or longer then the Olins shock would be my choice. For those in the USA I highly recommend you consider a Penske shock. They are really high quality and they can make the shock to your specs. That is what the wife's V11 has, as well as the wife's Ducati Monster. For the Monster they made a shock that was shorter then stock to lower the seat height for her. It is shorter then stock, but can adjust to stock length.

[docc]

Hmm, so if shock travel = approximately double the suspension travel (2" of shock travel = about 4" of suspension travel) [sorry for the inch measures, y'all), then an increase in shock length would be doubled at the ride height?

Such that my +6mm Öhlins would have increased ride height about a half inch? (yeah, mixing inch and metric, I know )

There is a dimensioned drawing of the swingarm in the early Workshop Manual. Someone could do this geometry . . .

 

[docc]

This sort of thing is precisely why I exited the College of Engineering at university . . .

When a deflection of 6mm is applied in the x-axis to the upper mounting point, calculate the mm change in position of the rear mounting point in the y-axis:

[Lucky Phil]

21 minutes ago, docc said:

This sort of thing is precisely why I exited the College of Engineering at university . . .

When a deflection of 6mm is applied in the x-axis to the upper mounting point, calculate the mm change in position of the rear mounting point in the y-axis:

It would be easier to just go out and swap shocks docc, lol. My 2-3mm is clearly wrong as I halved the additional shock length instead of doubling it and subtracting a bit for the shock and swingarm angle. BTW the Penske suggestion is a good one. I've had one of these apart on the race bike and they are excellent quality and a step above the OEM Ohlins. People don't realise that Ohlins suspension comes in different grades and the OEM stuff while decent isn't the magic gold people thing it is. It's a marketing exercise by the manufacturers more than a massive upgrade in suspension quality. The Ohlins "benefit" has reduced as time has passed because the Japanese/Italian OEM suspension is so much better than it used to be. I say this not to denigrate the Ohlins stuff but to make people aware that there is many other superior options out there from aftermarket manufacturers that people seem to ignore in the "worship of the gold". The money asked for a second hand Ohlins shock for a V11 is ridiculous these days when you can buy a superior tailored shock of better quality new. Remember the original V11 Ohlins shock is now 25 year old tech and materials

 

Phil

 

 

 

[docc]

21 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

It would be easier to just go out and swap shocks docc, lol. My 2-3mm is clearly wrong as I halved the additional shock length instead of doubling it and subtracting a bit for the shock and swingarm angle. BTW the Penske suggestion is a good one. I've had one of these apart on the race bike and they are excellent quality and a step above the OEM Ohlins. People don't realise that Ohlins suspension comes in different grades and the OEM stuff while decent isn't the magic gold people thing it is. It's a marketing exercise by the manufacturers more than a massive upgrade in suspension quality. The Ohlins "benefit" has reduced as time has passed because the Japanese/Italian OEM suspension is so much better than it used to be. I say this not to denigrate the Ohlins stuff but to make people aware that there is many other superior options out there from aftermarket manufacturers that people seem to ignore in the "worship of the gold". The money asked for a second hand Ohlins shock for a V11 is ridiculous these days when you can buy a superior tailored shock of better quality new. Remember the original V11 Ohlins shock is now 25 year old tech and materials

 

Phil

 

 

 

So . . . no one has volunteered to perform the assigned geometry problem, yet . . .

But, we can agree that increased shock length approximately is doubled in ride height?