V11 Rosso Mandello clutch question

[KernowNZ]

Hi everyone, I have recently purchased the bike with 52,000 kms (New Zealand). I have ridden it a few times and it seems great. It is my first V11.

One thing that I am worried about is the noise of the clutch. When the clutch is pulled in there is no noise, but when it is out it sounds like a large metal bar tapping on a metal plate. To me it seems very loud.

I have read a variety of forum posts about this single plate clutch in this model and the issues of the flywheel cracking.

The previous owner couldn't say much about the history of the bike before him, only what he had done during the 5 years he owned it. A clutch was not part of it.

The clutch housing looks like it has been sealed in the past as there is grey sealant smeared around a bit, but I really don't know.

As the bike has done 52,000 kms and is 23 years old, what is the likelihood that the clutch has been dealt with in the past? I really don't know.

I am gathering from the forum information that this bike would have a single plate clutch due to the sound. Do I understand this correctly? 
What would you recommend doing if it were your bike?

I have uploaded a video of the sound 

 

 

Thanks for your help and input.
 

[docc]

Welcome, @KernowNZ !

Yes, your Rosso Mandello clutch is single plate. And the flywheel is aluminum.

Also, the rattle in you video sounds entirely normal.

There remains some question whether any of the 2001 Rosso Mandello flywheels are prone to failure, or if that concern in confined to the 2002 Scura flywheels (and, possibly, the 2002 Tenni ) . . .

[MartyNZ]

Like Docc said, that clutch sounds like a normal single plate clutch to me, and that engine sounds like it is running really well too. You should contact @cash1000 who has the same model Rosso Mandello. He just had his clutch out, the aluminium flywheel wasn't cracked, so he fitted it back in. Let us know what part of the country you are in.

[KernowNZ]

Hi docc and MartyNZ,

Thank you both for your replies. That certainly makes me feel better about the clutch noise.

I am in Napier. The bike was first registered in Christchurch (2001) and I purchased it mid last year near Nelson. I think it has always been in the South Island. I am the 5th owner. I have done some maintenance and parts replacements, as some original parts were missing like the headlight and indicators. The back tail piece was also damaged from a luggage frame. Gutsibits and ebay have been a good source for most parts.

I will see if I can get in touch with cash1000.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

Cheers Jody

[KINDOY2]

Your clutch sounds great to me, I have had much louder on the multiple v-11's I have owned. including a R. Mandello....in Fact My current  Griso's clutch is much louder..You will learn to love the sound...:-)

 IMO..Don't be concerned , just enjoy the bike..:-)

[Lucky Phil]

That sounds like a twin plate clutch to me. My single plater is quiet engaged and a slight high pitched rattle (more of a swishing sound) when disengaged. My old twin plater sounded like yours does. Check the flywheel access hole and see if it's been change to a twin plater by the PO. BTW if you snap the clutch lever in and out of engagement at idle once it'll reduce the rattle by about 75% each time. 

The RAM single plater is the best individual mod you can do to a Guzzi big twin.

 

Phil

[cash1000]

Ive messaged KernowNZ if he wants to discuss off air.

[KernowNZ]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the further replies.

@Lucky Phil, I just took the inspection cover off and took a couple of photos which should be attached. There is a pen mark visible. It it possible to tell much from the photos?

I have messaged cash1000.

Cheers Jody

 

[po18guy]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:46 PM, KernowNZ said:

Hi docc and MartyNZ,

Thank you both for your replies. That certainly makes me feel better about the clutch noise.

I am in Napier. The bike was first registered in Christchurch (2001) and I purchased it mid last year near Nelson. I think it has always been in the South Island. I am the 5th owner. I have done some maintenance and parts replacements, as some original parts were missing like the headlight and indicators. The back tail piece was also damaged from a luggage frame. Gutsibits and ebay have been a good source for most parts.

I will see if I can get in touch with cash1000.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

Cheers Jody

Exact same noise as in my 2004 Ballabio. The rattle with the clutch disengaged is dry clutch rattle. When idling, the rattle strikes me as the input shaft /splines/gears rattling from the rapid acceleration/deceleration of the crank between firing impulses. The Red Line trans lube "Shock-proof" pretty much tells the story.

[red lion]

I don't understand. What story is the red line shock proof trans lube telling?

[docc]

@KernowNZ,

Can you stick a little magnet to that silver part (the actual flywheel)?

Not rusty "could" = aluminum . . .

If the flywheel (silver part) is not magnetic (aluminum), not likely the clutch (not visible without disassembly) has been changed from the original single plate . . .

[po18guy]

10 hours ago, red lion said:

I don't understand. What story is the red line shock proof trans lube telling?

I learned this from Kevin Cameron's writings in Cycle Magazine. Reciprocating engines do not have a 100% consistent crankshaft RPM. At each firing impulse, the cranks accelerates slightly and on each compression stroke of each revolution, it slows a bit. If you could graph it,the variation in rotational speed could be seen. How this manifests in the V11 would seem to be: the transmission input shaft runs through the clutch disc via a splined connection. There is necessary clearance in those splines so that the clutch disc can freely disengage. Engine out of the bike, you can rattle the input shaft in the clutch disc, even though it is a relatively tight fit. Each firing impulse - especially at idle - clanks those clutch splines against the input shaft splines - first against one side of the splines as the crank accelerates, then against the other side as the crank slows on compression stroke. We are talking only a few thousandths clearance here, but it does make noise, especially with dry clutches in a notice: "bell" housing. Wet clutches do not exhibit this nearly as much, as the splines are cushioned by oil, whereas the Guzzi splines are dry. The same to a lesser extent with the transmission gears engaged by the input shaft - they also make some noise, but they run in lube, which cushions and quiets the blow. There is a solution, but it would involve a heavier, more complex clutch disc with spring-loaded "scissor splines." Not worth the cost and effort.

Pull the clutch lever in and the clutch disc and transmission input shaft stop rotating and thus the "spline-banging" stops. Singles and twins are worst at this, as their crankshaft accel/decel cycles are more violent. Multi-cylinder engines have smoother crank rotation speeds.

Somewhat related, years back, Honda had split cam drive gears with a preload between the two halves of the gear to remove the backlash between the gears. This reduced noise - IIRC it was on their 750 V4 Interceptors so that it could pass noise laws. It also reduced dynamic stresses between the gears. Here is a web article which explains far better than I can.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=437206

The third answer is from someone in the aero industry:

"tbuelna (Aerospace) 1 Apr 18 01:09

It's called a scissor gear. They're used on engines with cam/accessory gear drives to reduce dynamic tooth loads due to torsional oscillations. In the case of your Toyota cam gear, the torsional oscillations are produced by the varying forces acting on the cam lobes. There is a moment in one direction as each leading cam flank pushes a valve open, and a moment in the opposite direction as the valve spring pushes against the trailing cam flank during closing. Conventional gears (not scissor gears) require some amount of backlash at the mesh to prevent interference. When there is backlash, reversing torsional oscillations will cause high dynamic contact loads on the gear tooth flanks at the mesh. These high dynamic tooth contact forces also produce noise. While a scissor gear can reduce dynamic tooth loading and noise, it also involves some mechanical losses.

You'll see them used on other engines like Cummins diesels and Honda motorcycle engines"

[Lucky Phil]

Single plater.

 

Phil

[KernowNZ]

Hi,

I have just checked with a magnet as @docc suggested and it is aluminum.

Thanks again for all the input.

Cheers Jody

[Lucky Phil]

question is is it an original flywheel or has it been replaced with a RAM unit at some time.

 

Phil