Is it a bitser?

[audiomick]

Coming out of the discussion that arose here (that I don't want to continue there to avoid de-railing the thread completely...)

I've been thinking once again about the originality of my V11 Le Mans.

As mentioned in the other link, it was built in 2002, has the crinkly engine paint, long frame and tank without the chin pad. The forks are the 43 mm Marzoccis with pre-load and rebound damping on both legs. Rear shock is Sachs with a white spring and blue adjustment ring.

The ECU is one of those with a paper sticker on it, a 15M. I've been reliably informed that those ECUs were not uncommen for a while. They were originally installed in a California model, were wrongly programmed and recalled, and used after re-programming in the factory in V11s.

All of the above seems to fit, going by what I have read here, for a 2002 "transition" build.

The combination that I haven't seen on any photos anywhere yet, and haven't heard mention of, is the dark grey colour with the slightly purple coloured mufflers and grey stilettos.

So I'm wondering if it was really built like that, or if it is a bitser. Does anyone have an opinion?

[Lucky Phil]

5 hours ago, audiomick said:

Coming out of the discussion that arose here (that I don't want to continue there to avoid de-railing the thread completely...)

I've been thinking once again about the originality of my V11 Le Mans.

As mentioned in the other link, it was built in 2002, has the crinkly engine paint, long frame and tank without the chin pad. The forks are the 43 mm Marzoccis with pre-load and rebound damping on both legs. Rear shock is Sachs with a white spring and blue adjustment ring.

The ECU is one of those with a paper sticker on it, a 15M. I've been reliably informed that those ECUs were not uncommen for a while. They were originally installed in a California model, were wrongly programmed and recalled, and used after re-programming in the factory in V11s.

All of the above seems to fit, going by what I have read here, for a 2002 "transition" build.

The combination that I haven't seen on any photos anywhere yet, and haven't heard mention of, is the dark grey colour with the slightly purple coloured mufflers and grey stilettos.

So I'm wondering if it was really built like that, or if it is a bitser. Does anyone have an opinion?

I've not seen a 2002 Le Mans with the later 43mm forks, the non chin pad tank, the later ITI instruments and the handlebar holes in the top triple clamp Mick. Maybe it's had the whole front end changed at some point and the PO has had a handlebar kit on it or it's a transition thing. Not sure. All the different models for the V11 series I find a bit confusing to be honest. Change the colour and call it a different name!

Phil

[audiomick]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

 call it a different name!

"Youbastard" springs to mind...

[guzzler]

I call mine the Tart....

[docc]

During one particularly rocky stretch with mySport, I started calling her Butterball, but one of the kindly members here talked me off that ledge.

On North American V11 the metal headstock tag is inscribed with the month/year of actual manufacture. Does your V11 have this, @audiomick?

[audiomick]

4 hours ago, docc said:

On North American V11 the metal headstock tag is inscribed with the month/year of actual manufacture. Does your V11 have this

Now that you mention it, it might have. But I'm not sure.

I wont be able to have a look until the end of the week, either. Away from home for work from tomorrow until Thursday.

 

EDIT: I had already uploaded a photo. Not that good, but enough to see that the manufacture date is apparently not on there.

Incidently, date of first registration was May 2003.

[audiomick]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:12 PM, Lucky Phil said:

... the handlebar holes in the top triple clamp...

I found an explanation for that: a forum acquaintance from a couple of german forums turns out to have fotos of my Le Mans from the time it was owned by the owner previous to the bloke I bought it off. According to the papers, he had it from some time in 2017 until the middle of 2022. The bloke before me bought it then, and sold it on to me at the end of 2022.

Anway, in the one photo there is a conventional handle bar on it. Also, the mufflers in the photo are light gray coloured, not the purplish ones that are on it now.

So the old girl is obviously a way off being "original". Unless, of course, one means "original" in the sense of "one of a kind"...

[Lucky Phil]

5 hours ago, audiomick said:

I found an explanation for that: a forum acquaintance from a couple of german forums turns out to have fotos of my Le Mans from the time it was owned by the owner previous to the bloke I bought it off. According to the papers, he had it from some time in 2017 until the middle of 2022. The bloke before me bought it then, and sold it on to me at the end of 2022.

Anyway, in the one photo there is a conventional handle bar on it. Also, the mufflers in the photo are light gray coloured, not the purplish ones that are on it now.

So the old girl is obviously a way off being "original". Unless, of course, one means "original" in the sense of "one of a kind"...

It think Mick if your mufflers are the std factory aluminium skinned units they started out black and then have faded through grey to violet.

Phil

[audiomick]

Ah, ok. As far as I know, they are the standard mufflers, so that could well be the case.

 

PS, I actually quite like the colour they have now.

[audiomick]

Thinking about this again today, I had a closer look at the VIN.

In the papers, the number is listed as

ZGU KT A01 0 2 M 111456

Here is an enlarged crop out of the photo further up:

 

I looked at the frame numbers list here, which explains what the various segments of the frame number denote:

https://www.mgcn.nl/database/mg-framenummers

According to that page, the three digits after the "KT", which denotes the model, indicate the version of the model. So that would be "A01" in my case.

However, in their listing, they don't list an "A01". The closest they come is these two entries

ZGUKT002,ZGUKTA02		V 11 CAT. 1100 2003-2004
ZGUKT000,ZGUKT001		V 11 LE MANS 1100 2002

The tenth digit of my number is "2", so the bike was built in 2002, so it is a fair bet that it really is a 2002 Le Mans.

The questions are

Has anyone else ever seen the "A01" in a frame number? I thought briefly that my number might be a badly engraved "001", but I've gone off that idea. I'm also aware that a list like the one in the link has no guarantee of being complete.

If anyone has seen the "A01", what was it on?

Assuming it is a 2002 Le Mans, which forks should it have? Can anyone say for sure?

As indicated further up, and in the thread about the Andreani cartridges, the upper triple clamp is obviously not original, as it has holes for the brackets for a handlebar which a Le Mans shouldn't have. The question is whether it was just the triple clamp, or the whole front end?

Not that I'm worried about it. I have the 43mm Marzocchis, and that seems, from what I have read, to be a good thing. I'm just curious about how much the bike has been modified.

[docc]

I suspect you have a very late 2002 production during which the "new" tanks and forks/clamps were introduced. What color(s) is your LeMans, @audiomick?

I did not know the production date is inscribed on the tag (at least on U.S. V11) as it is not in plain view and typically covered by the wiring/cables. I do not know if the Euro V11 build tag got similarly inscribed with the actual month-year of production . . .

[edit: Found this in your album. Is this the lovely lady we are speaking of?

[audiomick]

1 hour ago, docc said:

Found this in your album. Is this the lovely lady we are speaking of?

Yes, that is she.

 

Edith says, by the way, the fairing screen is not original. Doesn't fit very well, either. I took it off the first time I delved into the area under the fairing, and it was a pain in the proverbial to get it back on.

Edith also wants to note that you can see pretty much all of the VIN plate in that picture. That US models have the month on the tag had been mentioned here, and I went looking for it. I'm pretty sure it is not on the tag.

The bike was first registered on the 16th May 2003, which might be an indication that it was built fairly late in 2002, but that is a long way from being a sure thing.

Edited 23 hours ago by audiomick

[docc]

Pretty much everything about that (beautiful) LeMans says "2003", except the fuzzy engine paint. And the VIN tenth character. 

[Lucky Phil]

These VIN systems all sound very precise and logical and a useful "standard" but the reality is they are not. There has never been a hard and fast international "standard" VIN system. I've been here before even for my Supra. The VIN on the Supra and all the other Au cars not just mine doesn't 100% correspond to any known VIN system. Bits and pieces align but a lot of the digits don't. If you do research on the VIN numbering system it's anything but an international "standard" over the last 40 years.

From the shop manual for what thats worth.

Phil

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Lucky Phil

[audiomick]

15 hours ago, docc said:

Pretty much everything ...says "2003", except the fuzzy engine paint. And the VIN tenth character.

Yes, so it seems.

There is this thread here:

 

and then I found this, which corroborates that pretty well

https://www.mgcn.nl/database/modeloverzicht/13-v11/139-v11-modeloverzicht

from there:

Quote

The first version ( 1999-2000) has an aluminium-coloured block, 1471mm wheelbase, 4.5-inch rear rim.

The second version ( 2001-2002) has matt black ripple paint block, 1490mm wheelbase, 5.5-inch rear rim, frame reinforcements around the block.

The third version ( 2003-2005) has smooth matt black block, balance pipe in the exhaust in front of the block, some improvements in the block, thicker( 43mm) fork legs. Counters with black dial, the models without a big fairing have slightly higher handlebars.   

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

What I have marked in green applies to mine. Also, long tank and fuel pump in the tank, both characteristic of the 2003 and onwards models, I gather.

Edited 7 hours ago by audiomick