Odd starting issue.

[GSXR814]

I'm quite new to Guzzi ownership, so these symptoms might be very familiar to some of you, but I'm a bit lost to be honest. 

Got the bike out this morning to go to work. Ignition on, fuel pump primes, jabbed the starter and just a click, it did  that twice, then started up fine. 

Rode to work all good. 

Go to come home from work, ignition on, no fuel pump priming, nothing at all when I jabbed the starter button. 

Id read relays can be troublesome, although I'm not sure if any of the ones under the seat are the starter relay?, so I shuffled them about and checked all the fuses, all good, and still nothing. I started shuffling the relays around again when my mate came over to help. We decided to attempt to jump start it as initially I had a strong headlight and the horn worked but the headlight was fading and the horn had stopped working. 

It fired up, although I don't remember hearing the fuel pump prime, and ran  fine all the way home. I'm not sure if it started due to the jump or swapping the relays about? 

Got home, turned her off and back on and the fuel pump primed and she started fine, but all the way home and still now I have no horn, no brake light and no rev counter. 

I am somewhat at a loss to know what to look at first so any and all advice will be great fully recieved. 

Thanks

Mike

[p6x]

30 minutes ago, GSXR814 said:

I have no horn, no brake light and no rev counter. 

I recently had this issue myself. I used the horn and lost the lights, including the low oil pressure warning.

The 15 amps fuse in position 5 from the left had been somewhat swapped with the one in position 6. Adding the horn to the rest was too much for the 5 Amps fuse.

 

[GuzziMoto]

That could be classic relay issues. A lack of the fuel pump running when you turn it on can be a relay issue (assuming it is not a problem with the fuel pump). The fuel pump should always cycle when you turn it on. If it doesn't, something is probably wrong. The relay issue can be the relays themselves or the connections at the base of the relays.

If the fuel pump runs but it doesn't start when you push the starter button a common set of issues there is either the side stand switch or the neutral switch that turns the neutral light on. There is an interlock between the side stand and the neutral switch. 

I would check your fuses, and your relays. Also, confirm the headlight is on and not just the running light in the headlight bucket. If the headlight isn't on the alternator probably isn't charging the battery. Others will add more no doubt.

[guzzler]

I agree probably relays...

Mine has had this before I checked /cleaned them esp #1 and # 5 and blew out any dust etc from the relay base which sorted it.

By the way toggling the kill switch can help but really a stop gap measure.

Cheers 

[GSXR814]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

That could be classic relay issues. A lack of the fuel pump running when you turn it on can be a relay issue (assuming it is not a problem with the fuel pump). The fuel pump should always cycle when you turn it on. If it doesn't, something is probably wrong. The relay issue can be the relays themselves or the connections at the base of the relays.

If the fuel pump runs but it doesn't start when you push the starter button a common set of issues there is either the side stand switch or the neutral switch that turns the neutral light on. There is an interlock between the side stand and the neutral switch. 

I would check your fuses, and your relays. Also, confirm the headlight is on and not just the running light in the headlight bucket. If the headlight isn't on the alternator probably isn't charging the battery. Others will add more no doubt.

Its very much all or nothing. Either no fuel pump prime and nothing on the starter button. Or pump primes and she fires up. 

Further moving of relays has resulted in consistant starting. But still no horn, brake light or rev counter. 

Ill lift the relay bar and check wiring underneath tomorrow. 

Ive pulled all the main connectors around the headstock area and cleaned them with contact cleaner, in the bikes defence they all looked mint anyway👍

[GSXR814]

26 minutes ago, guzzler said:

I agree probably relays...

Mine has had this before I checked /cleaned them esp #1 and # 5 and blew out any dust etc from the relay base which sorted it.

By the way toggling the kill switch can help but really a stop gap measure.

Cheers 

1 and 5 with 1 being furthest left when looking at them from the left side of the bike? 

[GSXR814]

2 hours ago, p6x said:

I recently had this issue myself. I used the horn and lost the lights, including the low oil pressure warning.

The 15 amps fuse in position 5 from the left had been somewhat swapped with the one in position 6. Adding the horn to the rest was too much for the 5 Amps fuse.

 

I might change them all just because, but none look blown or dodgy but they are old. 

[guzzler]

Mate

# 1 ( Start ) is closest to the tank # 5 ( Fuel ) furthest from it.

Cheers 

Ps these two NEED to be 5 pin relays but most of us put 5 pin ones in all spots!

[p6x]

1 hour ago, GSXR814 said:

I might change them all just because, but none look blown or dodgy but they are old. 

Although they now have a visible way to identify when they are blown, it is always good to use an ohmmeter to be certain. If you do not have a multimeter, then swapping is a good way too.

[p6x]

2 hours ago, GSXR814 said:

I might change them all just because, but none look blown or dodgy but they are old. 

I reviewed the V11 workshop manual "updated" 2003; the one I have is in Italian, Spanish and French. But it clearly says Fuse #5 15A "avvio, arranque, demarrage" also. Just substitute that fuse to be certain.

[audiomick]

8 hours ago, GSXR814 said:

... Ignition on, fuel pump primes, jabbed the starter and just a click, it did  that twice, then started up fine. 

 

5 hours ago, GSXR814 said:

Its very much all or nothing. Either no fuel pump prime and nothing on the starter button. Or pump primes and she fires up.

I reckon there might be a couple of things happening there.

Firstly, have you got a workshop manual? There is one here:

https://guzzitek.org/gb/ma_us_uk/1100/V11_1999-2003_Atelier(Compil-GB-D-NL).pdf

On page 457 there is a listing of the fuses, and two pages later a wiring diagram. But have a good look at it yourself. The document is a compilation of several versions of the workshop manual, and you should make sure you are looking at the section that refers to your bike.

Anyway....

The "click, click, click, start" is well known. Mine does that. Starts mostly, but often enough the first couple of presses on the button just produce a click. I cleaned up the electrics a bit, and it got better, but it is still there. The basic problem there is that too many volts are getting lost between the battery and the starter solenoid. There doesn't need to be anything specifically broken. It can be just a cumulation of slightly dodgy connections.

The other one, no fuel pump prime and nothing, sounds like a different problem to me. Hard to say what it is, maybe "just" an intermittent connection somewhere, maybe something really broken.

So...

have a good look at the circuit diagram, so you have an idea how it all works. The relays are really important. Most of the important things, crucial to the bike running, involve a relay somehow.

Then...

go through and check and clean all of the electrical connections. Ok, that is a fair swag of things to look at. Start with the strap between the negative battery terminal and the back of the gearbox. That is your main "earth" connection.

As far as the fuses go, dont just check the fuses. The fuse holders (and the relay sockets) are a plastic block that accepts a female spade connector with a barb on it to hold it in place. These connectors are the socket that the fuse or relay sits in.

One can get the connectors out by going in from the fuse / relay side with a very small flat bladed screwdriver to depress the barb, and pulling the connector out to the rear side. Electrical contact cleaner might be enough to clean things up without actually pulling the connectors out.

 

To sum it up: have a good look at as much of the electrical system as you can. As I already wrote, it sounds to me like you might have a couple of things happening there, not just one.

[po18guy]

A properly sized pipe cleaner with something like naphtha or denatured alcohol can enter the female spade connectors for cleaning. Then Caig DeoxIt is a good reassembly precaution. In short, there are too many vulnerable weak links in the starting chain. The sidestand switch, neutral light, clutch safety switch and all relevant connections in addition to fuses and relays can truly confound troubleshooting.

My malfunction, which has been chased away temporarily, is key on, pumps powers up, but not even a click at the starter button. Nothing.  After a bump start and the usual riding vibration, all is again good. 

[GSXR814]

8 hours ago, guzzler said:

Mate

# 1 ( Start ) is closest to the tank # 5 ( Fuel ) furthest from it.

Cheers 

Ps these two NEED to be 5 pin relays but most of us put 5 pin ones in all spots!

All mine seem to be 5 pin. 

I have ordered 10 spares😁

[GuzziMoto]

The starting or not starting with a matching fuel pump running or not running is classic relays.

The lack of brake light, rev counter, and horn is often a blown fuse. But it could also be a relay not working. As mentioned, that may also include the front headlight being out but the running light in the headlight working. That can make you think your headlight is lit but it is not. The actual headlight and the running light are on two different circuits. The headlight circuit runs through relays so it can be cut out while the bike tries to start. And when that happens the alternator does not charge the battery as it is using the headlight circuit to measure battery voltage and if there is not voltage on the headlight circuit it does not charge the battery. Easy to check if the battery is being charged.

With the relays, it can be a bad relay or it can be a bad connection to the relay. Someone already suggested cleaning the relay bases I believe. That, along with checking the connections in the bases for a tight fit and adjusting the spades if required is good advice. Another known place for electrical issues like this is in the wires to and from the ignition switch. But I would first check relays and fuses. I use a volt meter to measure the fuses after pulling them out for continuity. But you can also measure for voltage on both sides. Visually looking at them is the least reliable way to check a fuse. They can look ok and be bad.

[GSXR814]

I've had a play with it today. 

Shuffled the relays about and inspected the underside of the fuse box. It all looks OK, but it can't be as once I had refitted it all everything worked as it should apart from the lack of a brake light. 

Check the bulb and all the connectors and all looks good so I'm guessing I have a partially knackered relay?