I'd just like to say.........

[Lucky Phil]

28 minutes ago, docc said:

Beta Testing of the new generation Moto Guzzi has begun!     

I looked at the new model in a dealership a few months back and even sat on it. It was very nice to sit on and looked nicely made although I know of 5 or 6 early production faults that have been experienced. Once again the people that just can't wait for a new model to bed in are the suckers that suffer. No sympathy for them. Guzzi missed one big maintenance opportunity in that to do the valve clearances you need to remove the cams! A bit of forethought during the design process and a slight mod to the architecture and this could have been avoided and the adjustment made very simple. Designers don't care about this stuff anymore because engines are basically disposable items now.

Phil

[Pressureangle]

20 hours ago, pete roper said:

No, from what I've heard the build quality has been pretty good but as with so many models before the bean counters were obviously allowed too much input and the ship has been spoilt for a ha'porth of tar. That leads to the issue of, especially with these sort of truncated designs as the Swiss thing above. I'll expand on this in a bit if you like but my beef is with everything behind the gearbox/swingarm spindle.

I'll have some of that for breakfast.

With all the discussion of Guzzi rear drives, they seem very durable (as I sit on 3 BMW bevels to get new main bearings installed)

[pete roper]

36 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

I looked at the new model in a dealership a few months back and even sat on it. It was very nice to sit on and looked nicely made although I know of 5 or 6 early production faults that have been experienced. Once again the people that just can't wait for a new model to bed in are the suckers that suffer. No sympathy for them. Guzzi missed one big maintenance opportunity in that to do the valve clearances you need to remove the cams! A bit of forethought during the design process and a slight mod to the architecture and this could have been avoided and the adjustment made very simple. Designers don't care about this stuff anymore because engines are basically disposable items now.

Phil

The valve clearance check procedure is essentially the same as all other twin cam Aprilias. Removing the cams isnt really a big deal but it could of been made so much easier by just having a plug in the front wall of the timing chest to allow insertion of the locking pin without removing the radiator and timing chest cover.

I agree with you though. The chances of high mileage V100's being rebuilt are very slim. That just doesn't happen with modern machines nowadays.

[Lucky Phil]

8 minutes ago, pete roper said:

The valve clearance check procedure is essentially the same as all other twin cam Aprilias. Removing the cams isnt really a big deal but it could of been made so much easier by just having a plug in the front wall of the timing chest to allow insertion of the locking pin without removing the radiator and timing chest cover.

I agree with you though. The chances of high mileage V100's being rebuilt are very slim. That just doesn't happen with modern machines nowadays.

There is a line of thought that suggests if you eliminate as many processes as possible, even the simple ones to achieve the objective then you also reduce the potential for errors. I agree with this Pete especially in the new world of Dealership mechanics and their level of skill combined with the overriding target of profit being the top priority. I'm not a huge fan of the Lego engine principle but there is nothing to be done about it anymore it's here to stay and a big part of why dealership mechanics skill levels are so poor. They don't get inside engines much anymore, most particularly in the car world. Most can't do a head gasket job anymore. Too complicated for them. Oh they'll get it done and then you'll be back to the dealership for the next 2 years trying to get sorted the oil leaks and timing issues etc introduced during the head gasket job. Eventually you just get tired of the battle and move onto the next car etc.

 

Phil  

[gstallons]

The response to all this :

 # 1 these engineers have never designed anything before . They have no failure under their belt , they have no success under their belt . The only thing they have going for them . Hubris . 

 # 2 the same can be said for the mechanics . The same .  

 

[LowRyter]

13 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

There is a line of thought that suggests if you eliminate as many processes as possible, even the simple ones to achieve the objective then you also reduce the potential for errors. I agree with this Pete especially in the new world of Dealership mechanics and their level of skill combined with the overriding target of profit being the top priority. I'm not a huge fan of the Lego engine principle but there is nothing to be done about it anymore it's here to stay and a big part of why dealership mechanics skill levels are so poor. They don't get inside engines much anymore, most particularly in the car world. Most can't do a head gasket job anymore. Too complicated for them. Oh they'll get it done and then you'll be back to the dealership for the next 2 years trying to get sorted the oil leaks and timing issues etc introduced during the head gasket job. Eventually you just get tired of the battle and move onto the next car etc.

 

Phil  

Don't worry Phil, so far as simple, those electric motors are supposed to go forever.  

[LowRyter]

4 hours ago, gstallons said:

The response to all this :

 # 1 these engineers have never designed anything before . They have no failure under their belt , they have no success under their belt . The only thing they have going for them . Hubris . 

 # 2 the same can be said for the mechanics . The same .  

 

In the military world, even the most high tech and complicated fighter aircraft are designed considering design trade-offs for reliability and maintainability.  Training and logistics being the key to maintain readiness.  

[p6x]

Nobody mentioned AI?

I was reading about those illustrators losing their jobs, since AI can do it just as well. Of course, AI trained on all that was done by those same people, to make them redundant.

What will come next? ask ChatGPT, Gemini, Copilot to design your next Moto Guzzi?

[gstallons]

Hmmmm , IDK . My 87 SE is so full of quirks it is hardly rideable. BUT I cannot explain the acceleration , the twisting of the bike when you are accelerating and how the bike picks up in the rear while all of this is taking place . IIRC I could hit 60mph in 1st gear. Keep in mind it IS more than ready to go to 2nd when this is happening . From 5500 on (or til you are ready to get to the next gear) this bike takes OFF ! Anyone that has or had ridden an un-emasculated HP Guzzi knows the feeling !

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, LowRyter said:

In the military world, even the most high tech and complicated fighter aircraft are designed considering design trade-offs for reliability and maintainability.  Training and logistics being the key to maintain readiness.  

Not sure about this. I've done a lot of work on McDonald Douglas A4G Skyhawks. Not much consideration for maintenance on that thing. 

Phil 

[docc]

I have long been fond of saying that consumer products, perhaps all the way from toasters to airliners, are designed with two purposes: build and sell.

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, docc said:

I have long been fond of saying that consumer products, perhaps all the way from toasters to airliners, are designed with two purposes: build and sell.

You need to pull down a modern car engine docc to properly understand how much of the design is about production line speed and ease of assembly and minimising machining. Terrible.

Phil  

[docc]

29 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

You need to pull down a modern car engine docc to properly understand how much of the design is about production line speed and ease of assembly and minimising machining. Terrible.

Phil  

Yeah, we agree on this.

My introduction to this concept was discovering the true purpose of the "Phillip's Head Screw."

Then came Torx . . .

[audiomick]

12 minutes ago, docc said:

Then came Torx . . .

I like Torx.

10 or 15 years ago they were a bit of a pain in the arse, because one didn't necessarily have the appropriate bit on hand. In the meantime, they have become so common here that the bit is available more or less as a matter of course.

The adavantage over a Phillips screw is that the driver is less likely to jump out of the screw head if you don't put enough pressure on it to stay in. When using a battery drill to screw in the screws, this is a major advantage. On the stages in theatres here, where set pieces are commonly screwed to the stage floor, and generally where things made of wood are screwed together, you nearly always see Torx here. As I said, I like them.

[gstallons]

OOOOH , you need to Google Robertson screws . You will never use another style of woodscrew again .