Pilot Debrief.

[Pressureangle]

25 minutes ago, p6x said:

Let's see what comes out of the terrible accident that happened last night between a CRJ700 flying on behalf of AA, and a Military Helicopter on a training flight.

I watched a preliminary report from another youtuber akin to Pilot Debrief, and it seems incredible that cross traffic is allowed through the gliding path of aircrafts landing.

Especially that TCAS does not work below 1000 feet.

 

Airport cameras caught the crash clearly. Maybe I fell into the tinfoil, but there is no way a lit helicopter flew directly into the glide path of a commercial aircraft, in a no-fly zone, at precisely the right altitude, with presumably both military and civilian air traffic control screaming at them, and maybe the pilots of the jet as well who were probably already on automatic...
Just sayin, I want to know who was on that jet's passenger list.

[Scud]

24 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

Just sayin, I want to know who was on that jet's passenger list.

I just started watching the TV Series The Blacklist. In the first season, one of the bad guys used mass transit "accidents" for assassinations. The world is crazy enough these days that what used to feel like the "tin foil hat zone" has to at least be considered.

This ought to be enough to start a proper thread drift....

[activpop]

35 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

 with presumably both military and civilian air traffic control screaming at them

To my knowledge, there is no overlapping military control. When you are in general airspace, ATC has you.  When you are on final approach, you have been handed off to tower. 

[Pressureangle]

6 minutes ago, activpop said:

To my knowledge, there is no overlapping military control. When you are in general airspace, ATC has you.  When you are on final approach, you have been handed off to tower. 

'control' yes, ATC. But *particularly* on a 'training mission' military has constant communication and radar/transponder location. So somebody soon will turn up with ATC radio transmissions... unless they contact FAA first, then they'll have a mysterious single-vehicle fatality. (TFH)

[Pressureangle]

22 minutes ago, Scud said:

I just started watching the TV Series The Blacklist. In the first season, one of the bad guys used mass transit "accidents" for assassinations. The world is crazy enough these days that what used to feel like the "tin foil hat zone" has to at least be considered.

This ought to be enough to start a proper thread drift....

Hollywood *creates NOTHING*. Everything they do is an idea that came from somewhere else, and real-world possibilities seen through Hollywood *always* have root in real stories. 

Remember when we were kids, every Cop had a little black book? 

[LowRyter]

So sad and a bit scary.  I'd guess that significant proportion of travelers have flown through National A/P.  I've flown in there more times than I can remember. 

I didn't know that the Potomac was also a path for air traffic not using the airport. 

Edited January 31 by LowRyter

[p6x]

52 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

'control' yes, ATC. But *particularly* on a 'training mission' military has constant communication and radar/transponder location. So somebody soon will turn up with ATC radio transmissions... unless they contact FAA first, then they'll have a mysterious single-vehicle fatality. (TFH)

 

[activpop]

That was hard to listen to.

Edited January 30 by activpop

[p6x]

 

[Pressureangle]

MMM yeah, so the Helo was flying night vision...NOT. My understanding, and having been in maybe a hundred Blackhawks and most of those at night, night vision is only used when the aircraft is FULL DARK. I'd sure like to have a military pilot confirm that. Firstly, the jet is re-routed to the secondary runway only seconds before it's too late; no reason given. Perhaps there was a large jet ready for takeoff on the main runway. Secondly, the Helo suddenly ascends a hundred feet above absolute ceiling, just at exactly the wrong time... Thirdly, he didn't mention it, but rewatch the flight path- the Helo was pretty far out of his route. 
I don't like it. It's either a Charley Foxtrot of the first order, or actually easier to believe a planned incident. Yeah, I know, get more tinfoil. 

[p6x]

1 hour ago, Pressureangle said:

when the aircraft is FULL DARK.

I was in the Army, in 76, and we had enhanced night vision googles in the battle tank. However, any kind of light would completely ruin the vision.

So I agree with you on principle.

Now I am pretty certain the technology has evolved, and flares no longer completely blind you.

[audiomick]

I've got another question: why on earth is there an "established" helicopter route that crosses the aproach path to a an airport? Bugger the maximum ceiling, why are they allowed to fly through there at all?

[gstallons]

The "established route" follows the river as much as possible. It has been this way for some time. This was an understood route (like it or not) and had been used w/o troubles.  From all the things I have seen , this chopper was to remain at/below 200' until it passed the Wilson Bridge (downstream of the airport) and then would ascend to 300' heading to Davidson AFB .  Why this chopper pilot turned right and ascended I will never know . At some point prior to this there was a shift change in the Control Tower and the redirection from Runway 1 to Runway 33 was ordered . Also , the communications were where the ATC could communicate w/each aircraft but the aircraft could NOT communicate w/each other.  

 When it is all said and done there were a lot of small infractions that led to this collision . Watch all of these videos shown to get (I'm sure you have) a better understanding . 

[p6x]

13 hours ago, audiomick said:

I've got another question: why on earth is there an "established" helicopter route that crosses the aproach path to a an airport? Bugger the maximum ceiling, why are they allowed to fly through there at all?

Mick, I don't know in Germany, but I know that in France, Military and Civil aviation do not cross flight paths the way they do in the USA.

Civil aviation is prohibited to fly in Military flight zones and paths, and the reciprocal is also true.

If a Military aircraft has to land at a civilian aiport, they have to switch to civil controls, and turn on their transponders as commercial flights do. They also need to use the same radio frequencies as everybody else.

I have a limited understanding on how it works in the USA, but from what I understood, and as on the video from Blancolirio, Military aircrafts don't need to use the same frequencies as civil aircraft, and if I understood properly, they don't always have their transponders on; it is easily understandable that those VIP helicopters want maximum security, so they don't broadcast for eventual enemy attacks.

The Helicopter seems to have altered its course instead of hugging the potomac's river bank as the flight path requires, and he was also 100 feet higher than its hard ceiling of 200 feet.

This will most likely give pause to the FAA, and they may alter the rules for that specific zone which is extremly crowded because of the airport, and because of the proximity of the White House and Pentagon which are restricted airspace for all.

Edited January 31 by p6x

[Gmc28]

On 1/30/2025 at 6:00 AM, p6x said:

Let's see what comes out of the terrible accident that happened last night between a CRJ700 flying on behalf of AA, and a Military Helicopter on a training flight.

I watched a preliminary report from another youtuber akin to Pilot Debrief, and it seems incredible that cross traffic is allowed through the gliding path of aircrafts landing.

Especially that TCAS does not work below 1000 feet.

 

No TCAS below 1000’?  not sure where that comes from… it should work fine, just with different parameters.  

Thats some really crowded airspace, so while its all horrible of course what happened, and the odds are astronomically in favor of a safe operation based on the zillions of flight hours and operations that have safely been done, its still not totally surprising that an “oops” from a pilot would cause the carnage in that crowded area.  

Well before 9-11, which of course changed everything, we’d sometimes depart Teterboro and fly down the hudson in a little jet (lear 20 series) very low… I believe the VFR corridor dictated we be at 1100’ or thereabouts, right in proximity to helicopters and little piston planes, and it felt like you could touch the statue of liberty.  Seemed a bit naughty, as the corridor was intended for light  aircraft and helo’s, but regardless, in addition to all those little aircraft swarming around us everywhere we were also sandwiched so near the arriving and departing IFR corridors for Newark and Teterboro.  But somehow it all worked…. most of the time.   the military guys are exceptionally well trained, but not always as adept with civilian ATC, as they may have more distraction and/or a lot less experience in flight hours in that realm.  We’ll sometimes see helicopter pilots that finish their military stint and have not much more than 1000 hrs of flight time on their resume.  not totally fair to compare the two types of flying, but in the fixed wing civilian world, you’d need more hours than that to even begin to sit as co-pilot.