2017 Griso relay location?

[red lion]

When turning on the key everything lights up. then hit the start button and nothing. battery is good. the bike will push start. wherer are the relays located?

[pete roper]

Do you hear a ‘Click’ from the relay which is in a block on the RH side under the seat. If you get a ‘Click’ but no start it’s probably Startus Interuptus. Well documented on the Ghetto.

[gstallons]

# 1 how much fo you know about troubleshooting and how much do you know about where things are on your bike , reading a wiring diagram ? 

 This is going to be imperative for you to diagnose and repair your bike .

[p6x]

I know that I am late to that topic; since the OP did not reply, I wanted to document what Euro Motoelectrics recommends for those intermittent starting problems on the 1200 8 Valves engines.

YouTube is full of videos related to this issue.

 

[gstallons]

A lot of things "stall" on these forums . Yes the larger relay is the way to go . You want to buy a name brand relay along with a connector. Hella is the first one that comes to mind.

[audiomick]

21 hours ago, p6x said:

...what Euro Motoelectrics recommends for those intermittent starting problems

I've seen a lot of stuff about those sort of problems, whether it relates to a V11, a CARC bike, a Breva 750, or whatever.

As far as I can tell, it all boils down to getting as direct a connection as possible from the battery to the starter solenoid through a big, fat wire, so the starter solenoid gets enough of a kick in the arse to do its job properly when you push the "go" button.

[GuzziMoto]

The newer CARC Guzzi's are funny. The ECU monitors the voltage it sees from the battery. If the voltage it sees at the battery is too low it will not allow a start attempt or it will abort a start attempt if the voltage drops too low when a start attempt is in process. When you push the starter button on a newer CARC Guzzi you are requesting a start. The button does not directly send power to the starter relay and then to the starter. It logs a request with the ECU, which then either engages the starter or not. That is also why on the newer bikes you only have to push the button for a moment but the starter will run until the motor starts or until the timer expires. On newer CARC Guzzi's holding the starter button down should override the ECU and its abort process. But on the earlier CARC Guzzi's there was no override option I am aware of. That can make starting with a Lithium battery problematic when it is cold out. If the battery doesn't provide enough voltage it will abort the start. And if it aborts the start attempt it can be hard to get the battery warmed up to where it has enough voltage to start the bike.

[p6x]

8 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

The newer CARC Guzzi's are funny.

This is the way everything is now. You are second guessed at every twist and turn, and those algorithms are never completely full proof. One blatant example is the Boeing MCAS.

[p6x]

16 hours ago, audiomick said:

As far as I can tell, it all boils down to getting as direct a connection as possible from the battery to the starter solenoid through a big, fat wire, so the starter solenoid gets enough of a kick in the arse to do its job properly when you push the "go" button.

All of our solenoids have a direct connection to the battery for the starter motor input. What came as a surprise is the signal connection coming from the relay. According to the currently available literature, that wire is undersized, and can only supply the hold-in magnet, but not the close-in one.

But we have two different situations:

Case of the V11: the "signal" wire is not routed through a relay. It comes directly from the ignition rotary; thus the advice from @Kiwi_Roy to clean it and grease it with vaseline, or modify the circuit, which is the solution I adopted, by adding a relay. So the signal wire no longer directly goes to the solenoid, but to a relay, which in turns sends the power to the solenoid. The additional relay is directly connected to the battery (via a fuse), and when the signal from the starter button comes, then the Solenoid gets its power from a shorter route.

Other case: the "signal" is correctly routed through to a relay, stock, but the user's consensus is, that the wire from the relay to power the solenoid is under gauged. In some situations, the close-in magnet does not get the necessary amps to pull the fork that engages the Bendix into the flywheel, so it never closes the circuit that powers the starter motor and switch to the hold-in magnet, since it does not complete the full travel. The proven solution has been, as stated above, to add a size 14 wire between the relay + connection to the Solenoid' signal input.

That is my understanding of the issue. Am I correct?

 

[docc]

38 minutes ago, p6x said:

All of our solenoids have a direct connection to the battery for the starter motor input. What came as a surprise is the signal connection coming from the relay. According to the currently available literature, that wire is undersized, and can only supply the hold-in magnet, but not the close-in one.

But we have two different situations:

Case of the V11: the "signal" wire is not routed through a relay. It comes directly from the ignition rotary; thus the advice from @Kiwi_Roy to clean it and grease it with vaseline, or modify the circuit, which is the solution I adopted, by adding a relay. So the signal wire no longer directly goes to the solenoid, but to a relay, which in turns sends the power to the solenoid. The additional relay is directly connected to the battery (via a fuse), and when the signal from the starter button comes, then the Solenoid gets its power from a shorter route.

Other case: the "signal" is correctly routed through to a relay, stock, but the user's consensus is, that the wire from the relay to power the solenoid is under gauged. In some situations, the close-in magnet does not get the necessary amps to pull the fork that engages the Bendix into the flywheel, so it never closes the circuit that powers the starter motor and switch to the hold-in magnet, since it does not complete the full travel. The proven solution has been, as stated above, to add a size 14 wire between the relay + connection to the Solenoid' signal input.

That is my understanding of the issue. Am I correct?

 

I would add a clarification regarding the V11 that this assessment is true for V11 beginning with the LongFrame, 2002 (and late 2001 in Europe), while the ShortFrame starts through the first relay and benefits from a good quality, high current relay like the Pickers Components listed in the "answer" to the Best Relay thread.

[gstallons]

Alright , this is what I did . The wire that goes to the starter solenoid you will now connect it to a conventional size relay pin 86 . pin 87 will go to a good ground. pin 30 you can (if it is easy to get to)bolt the hot/battery post of the starter solenoid . if you are going to do anything install a  20a cb there , pin 87 will now go to the start pin on the starter . 

 Draw this out on paper and look at it a minute . When you have your epiphany , get busy , look at where you want to route things and make sure you are happy w/your work . I did this years ago to a 5000 Ford tractor . It kept eating neutral start switches and I first wired around it . After standing next to it and starting it in gear , I fixed it w/this setup.

Edited July 23 by gstallons
more info

[p6x]

2 hours ago, docc said:

I would add a clarification regarding the V11 that this assessment is true for V11 beginning with the LongFrame, 2002 (and late 2001 in Europe), while the ShortFrame starts through the first relay and benefits from a good quality, high current relay like the Pickers Components listed in the "answer" to the Best Relay thread.

Very well.

So not all the V11 are concerned with the relay less installation. One may wonder why Moto Guzzi went to making a less qualitative installation???

I did not add that my V11 also suffered from a starter motor failure, with the shield between the armature and the planetary arcing and giving the exact same symptoms as in startus interruptus.

If I had not updated the starting circuit, I may have gone after the wrong symptom and not have resolved the issue.

 

Edited July 23 by p6x

[docc]

Just conjecture on the Moto Guzzi process, but the early V11 suffer from relay failure in position one. Perhaps this led to change the electrical demand for starting through the ignition switch.

The very first action under warranty by my dealer was supplying a larger Start Relay.

[p6x]

1 hour ago, docc said:

Just conjecture on the Moto Guzzi process, but the early V11 suffer from relay failure in position one. Perhaps this led to change the electrical demand for starting through the ignition switch.

It seems a recurrent issue.

I read, about the Quota, that the AKRON rims were failure prone, e.g. fracturing... yet, Moto Guzzi used all the stock before changing provider...

 

[gstallons]

Uhhh , that's life . After all , they all answer to pencil pushers .