ECU talk

[Gmc28]

Questionable judgment on my part as to whether to post such a poorly defined and debatable topic, and not sure if this is the right area of the forum, but here goes:  (admin can move this topic as needed :->. And no, there’s nothing in here about motor oil, or Trump, or Gaza…. So it’s not quite that bad.  But there’s also nothing in here about women, so maybe not worth reading…)

ECU flash, vs Power Commander, and then UpMap (a subset of ECU flash?)…. Which way to go on a later model guzzi.  But thats too broad, so to narrow it down, its for an E5 V85tt, where to my knowledge no one has cracked the ECU allowing for Guzzidiag, Beetle, etc., to fit into the list of those kind of options.

I’ve lived my mechanical life happily thus far with the opinion that I’ll remove power commanders from any bikes I’ve acquired and then instead upload a revised map that does what I want.  Ducati’s, KTM’s, and Moto Guzzi’s, all the same though via different pathways, and with happy results.  Oh, and i guess I’ll add that on a bmw that i put a lot of miles on i had an emulator, which worked well enough in that case, but thats a bit different.  

But on the E5 V85tt (but same question applies to other Guzzi’s or brands) there’s no guzzidiag or Beetle maps, yet, purportedly because no one has “cracked” the ECU.  So instead (“instead” is my word, and maybe the wrong word?) there’s the power commander, which does most of the same thing, in a different way, and with (arguably) mildly different results.  I’ll further qualify that by saying there are no major mods in play for my situation, pretty much just exhaust, so no major changes are needed/desired in engine parameters other than accommodating the new exhaust and addressing the usual “flaws” from modern factory/OEM settings, therefore the differences in the use of PC vs an ECU flash would seem to be very small.  Perhaps just a matter of the amount of “clutter”?  Just want the bike to accommodate the change to an aftermarket exhaust, run sweet, and just be generally well sorted. 

So far so good?… but a PC6, with AT300 is about a grand (USD).  And the V85 crowd says you gotta ALSO use UpMap, to have the ECU accommodate the exhaust change, and thats where I’m hung up.  Thats another 5 bills (USD), and if a PC6 can effect fuel/air ratio, then what is the UpMap doing that the PC6 can’t do?  The general answer is that UpMap addresses the fuel ratio issue for the exhaust, while PC6 allows for more HP (etc).    I’d assume the UpMap is more 1-dimensional, and may not be able to do all that a PC6 can do, but then again, why not?  When a map is chosen for UpMap from their list of options, is it flashing the ECU, and if so, why not wait for someone to develop a great map that can then be uploaded to the ECU?  And if the UpMap is instead biasing data to achieve what it does on the front end of the ECU, then why not just a PC6 to achieve the same thing?

i’m thinking that maybe UpMap utilizes a part of the ECU that OEM’s and regulatory agencies allow to be accessed on a limited level for accommodating race track type situations, meaning just a limited “access” to the ECU, but thats pure conjecture on my part.  

Anyone have an enlightening way of explaining an answer to that scattershot question?

[Chuck]

Of course I'm a cheap Guzzi Guy (tm) but for that kind of money, I'd learn to love the sound of the stock exhaust until Guzzidiag cracks the code. (shrug)

[Randy]

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=110129.0

At least lets you look at the codes. 11MP ECU uses CANbus instead of K-Line, that's why Guzzidiag doesn't work.

Cable: https://www.diagcode.com/products/obd2-adapter-cable-for-guzzi-piaggio-vespa-harley-davidson-and-more/

Edited June 27 by Randy

[Gmc28]

i hear ya Chuck, and that's where i'm at currnetly, but wondering whether buying just an UpMap to address the upgrades and then waiting for a better map via that pathway is a dead-end, and/or just waiting to see if eventually someone cracks the ECU, or whether a great map from a PC6 would be an expensive but "final" solution.  in short, why an UpMap plus a PC6? 

And is just waiting for the potential for someone to crack the ECU and have access to good new maps, is that just cheaper, or is it actually better somehow? for that (full ECU access with new map), i assume larger ability to manipulate parameters... more parameters and more range in adjustment.  But i wouldn't need that necessarily, so i think the only downside to the PC6 is the cost.

[GuzziMoto]

I don't understand why you would need both. But II am not up to date on the V85TT. It could be the difference between closed loop and open loop running. The V85TT would run in both modes at different times, depending on a couple factors. The PC6 should easily allow you to adjust fueling in open loop mode. Perhaps the UpMap would allow you to adjust fueling in closed mode. Beyond that I don't get why you would need both.

That said, if I had a V85TT and was upgrading it like exhaust upgrades I would do the upgrade and see how it ran before spending money on anything to correct fueling. If the Fuel Injection system is decent it should correct the fueling without any extra effort. Christ, back in 2001 I had a Buell that you could watch correct fueling when you freed up the exhaust, ride it and the fueling would adjust within a few miles, smoothing out and getting crisp. The exhaust pipe I ran was a SuperTrap tune-able disc muffler and I could add or subtract discs to vary the back pressure. The O2 sensor would feed the data to the ECU and the ECU would adjust the fueling tables. Even the part of the fueling table that was open loop would adjust based on the O2 sensor readings the same way the fueling tables adjusted for changes in the air pressure reading or air temp reading. That was back in 2001, if they aren't at least as good as that now I am disappointed. So I would do whatever it is you are planning on doing and ride it to see how it runs. The V11 Sport may have needed fueling help, but by now they should be past that I would think.

[Gmc28]

1 hour ago, docc said:

We are talking rather specifically of the V85TT here?

Yessir. Though the question is truly posed also as a general knowledge question, as I thought I understood the topic, until this recent go-around with the v85, where the advice “out there” is that you’d use both upmap (to correct fueling for exhaust) and the pc6 (for power gains, based in part on better flowing exhaust).  

36 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

I don't understand why you would need both. But II am not up to date on the V85TT. It could be the difference between closed loop and open loop running. The V85TT would run in both modes at different times, depending on a couple factors. The PC6 should easily allow you to adjust fueling in open loop mode. Perhaps the UpMap would allow you to adjust fueling in closed mode. Beyond that I don't get why you would need both.

That said, if I had a V85TT and was upgrading it like exhaust upgrades I would do the upgrade and see how it ran before spending money on anything to correct fueling. If the Fuel Injection system is decent it should correct the fueling without any extra effort. Christ, back in 2001 I had a Buell that you could watch correct fueling when you freed up the exhaust, ride it and the fueling would adjust within a few miles, smoothing out and getting crisp. The exhaust pipe I ran was a SuperTrap tune-able disc muffler and I could add or subtract discs to vary the back pressure. The O2 sensor would feed the data to the ECU and the ECU would adjust the fueling tables. Even the part of the fueling table that was open loop would adjust based on the O2 sensor readings the same way the fueling tables adjusted for changes in the air pressure reading or air temp reading. That was back in 2001, if they aren't at least as good as that now I am disappointed. So I would do whatever it is you are planning on doing and ride it to see how it runs. The V11 Sport may have needed fueling help, but by now they should be past that I would think.

I hear you on the initial statement about “why both”, which is where I’m at.

since they both work by adjusting fueling (the fuel/air mix), whether it’s via a map change or a pre-ecu bias, I’m therefore not clear on how they really differ in what they accomplish (even if it’s via different methods).  A map change can effect a larger array of things and to a larger extent, but for the scope of just adjusting to accommodate for a somewhat better flowing exhaust, and/or to adjust the mix for “best running” vs “lowest emissions”, what’s the difference? 
 

regarding the self adjusting ecu’s though, I’ve not seen that ever on my various machines.  Sounds like black magic😎

Edited June 27 by Gmc28

[Tomchri]

Vodo boxes I think. Had a BMW K1200S, one of the first models, IT was terrible, MUCH worse than the usual 3k trouble on a V11. Entering a round about, clutch in was needed.  Spoke to a technician at a BMW dealer, who had a test bench. He said yes we can put her on the bench, do some magic, BUT it will not last, WHAT ?  Sold the bloody thing. K1300S was much better.

Cheers Tom.

[GuzziMoto]

16 hours ago, Gmc28 said:

Yessir. Though the question is truly posed also as a general knowledge question, as I thought I understood the topic, until this recent go-around with the v85, where the advice “out there” is that you’d use both upmap (to correct fueling for exhaust) and the pc6 (for power gains, based in part on better flowing exhaust).  

I hear you on the initial statement about “why both”, which is where I’m at.

since they both work by adjusting fueling (the fuel/air mix), whether it’s via a map change or a pre-ecu bias, I’m therefore not clear on how they really differ in what they accomplish (even if it’s via different methods).  A map change can effect a larger array of things and to a larger extent, but for the scope of just adjusting to accommodate for a somewhat better flowing exhaust, and/or to adjust the mix for “best running” vs “lowest emissions”, what’s the difference? 
 

regarding the self adjusting ecu’s though, I’ve not seen that ever on my various machines.  Sounds like black magic😎

Most modern cars and motorcycles have that feature. Most anything that runs an O2 sensor has it, some better then others. My Buell ran a Weber / Marelli fuel injection system, and it did it very well. In fact, most vehicles today will use the O2 sensor input to adjust back out any fueling corrections you make, hence the BMW tech telling Tomchri that he can correct the fueling but it won't last. I know the PC6 has the ability to use the O2 sensor input, but to do so you must disable the O2 sensor input on the original ECU. I have that set up on my Griso. I give the PC target air fuel ratios and it adjusts the fueling for me. The original ECU does that but it does not allow me to pick what target air fuel ratio it is adjusting to, it only targets the air fuel ratio it was told to target from the factory, which is an air fuel ratio chosen to meet emissions standards while delivering the best throttle response and power it can. But the primary factor there was emissions, because first and foremost the bike has to meet emissions. I wonder if the UpMap allows you to adjust those targets. I know the PC can't, but the Up Map looks like it can write to the original ECU. But if it can do that it should mean you don't need the PC6. But the UpMap site seems very light on details, and I am not going to put any real effort into learning what it does and how it does it.

It is hard to balance "best emissions" with best running. Most internal combustion engines make the least emissions they can with a slightly lean mixture while they make best power and best throttle control with a mixture on the rich side. Part of that is because while we think of rich and lean mixtures as a single thing, the mixture is either rich, lean, or right in the middle, reality is that in the combustion chamber parts of it are rich, parts of it are lean, and some of it may very well be right in the middle. The air and fuel in the combustion chamber are virtually never homogenous. Lots of effort go into trying to design the intake and combustion chamber to mix the air and fuel as well as possible. But it is hard to get the air and fuel to fully mix. So if I only add exactly the right amount of fuel for the amount of air in the combustion chamber some of it is going to be clumped together still at the time of ignition, creating some areas with more fuel then the air in that area can burn. But that means that in other areas there will be too little fuel for how much air is there and that results in those areas being lean. Trying to balance that out is tricky.

[ScuRoo]

On 6/28/2024 at 4:09 AM, Gmc28 said:

regarding the self adjusting ecu’s though, I’ve not seen that ever on my various machines.  Sounds like black magic😎

If it’s O2 sensor equipped - when operating in closed loop it will always eventually optimise fuelling to stoichiometric ratio of approx 14.7:1 even if you free up the breathing.

As soon as you crack open the throttle it’ll be into open loop by which although a generally richer air fuel mixture from factory you can focus on changing and optimising to suit your mods and performance tastes.

After my own experience on my bike - I now would always start by upgrading the O2 sensor for a quality, sensitive (as in quick-changing) sensor first. And proceed from that starting point onwards

[Weegie]

I know nothing of the systems you're referring to or the V85, I just chimed in response to @ScuRoo comment on the O2 sensor and I've no clue what's on a V85

Most OEM lambdas fitted are narrow band, meaning they only "see" close to Stoichiometric conditions, so they can only sense rich/perfect/lean conditions.

AFAIK that then causes a short term fuel trim to start adjusting towards target, but the sensor can only tell the ECU I'm to rich/lean and then an iteration process begins until the sensor detects a different condition.

More expensive wide band sensors can tell the ECU the value over a wider range (or band) so the ECU can react to the O2 value, so it's faster and fuel values can be more accurately targeted.

No clue with the Guzzis as mine are all ancient open mapped, but some of the Beemers use RpidBike Modules which piggyback the ECU and adjust mapping on the fly. Some modules can use wideband sensors to adjust fuelling to a chosen A/F ratio which can even be seen (if desired) by another add on and targets adjusted on the fly.

https://www.dimsport.it/en/rapid-bike/youtune/

Probably of no relevance whatsoever, but thought I'd mention it, apologies if I'm way off topic

[pete roper]

Another thing that makes it much more difficult to safely work out any modifications to the mapping of the MP11 compared to earlier devices is quite simply down to the size of the maps/data it contains. I was chatting briefly with Mark the other day and can’t remember the exact figures, I’ll ask him again next time we meet and pay more attention, but the 7SM as used on bikes like the Cali 1400’s and early V85’s contains vast amounts more data and many more ‘Unknown’ parameters than the simpler ECUs of yore like the 15M and W5AM but then the MP11 is orders of magnitude larger again! Really, it’s huge! Not only that there are huge swathes of files and info inside it that will controll not only the fuelling and spark but the ride by wire parameters and safety features, the heat related advance decay curves and hosts of other things that unless you not only know what they do but how they interact with each other could be not only damaging but downright dangerous to be messing with.

Apparently Alientech has some sort of software that allows access to the MP11 but from what I could gather from talking to Mark it is ECU and map specific meaning that if you do purchase it you need to pay some form of licence fee for each ecu or map it interacts with. I may be off the ball with this as it is way, way above my pay grade but the main take-away seemed to be that building a map for an individual MP11 was going to be hideously expensive! Up in the high hundreds of dollars! Per map/ecu! You can imagine your average Guzzi owner who is so mean they can peel and eat an orange without taking their hands out of their pockets lining up around the block for that can’t you? NOT!

No doubt there will be the usual tribes of clueless charlatans jumping out from behind bushes waving their cheap fetishes to ward off the demons of ‘Power sapping emissions controls forced on us by the evil gubmint’ by tricking some aspect of the sensors to pour in and waste more fuel and damage the engine and environment for no gain but they’ve been around forever! Hopefully they won’t actually do anything downright dangerous, but who knows?

Since I don’t think I’ll ever own one of these shiny, glittering monsters it doesn’t really matter to me. I retired yesterday. My shit all works. I’m good.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, pete roper said:

Another thing that makes it much more difficult to safely work out any modifications to the mapping of the MP11 compared to earlier devices is quite simply down to the size of the maps/data it contains. I was chatting briefly with Mark the other day and can’t remember the exact figures, I’ll ask him again next time we meet and pay more attention, but the 7SM as used on bikes like the Cali 1400’s and early V85’s contains vast amounts more data and many more ‘Unknown’ parameters than the simpler ECUs of yore like the 15M and W5AM but then the MP11 is orders of magnitude larger again! Really, it’s huge! Not only that there are huge swathes of files and info inside it that will controll not only the fuelling and spark but the ride by wire parameters and safety features, the heat related advance decay curves and hosts of other things that unless you not only know what they do but how they interact with each other could be not only damaging but downright dangerous to be messing with.

Apparently Alientech has some sort of software that allows access to the MP11 but from what I could gather from talking to Mark it is ECU and map specific meaning that if you do purchase it you need to pay some form of licence fee for each ecu or map it interacts with. I may be off the ball with this as it is way, way above my pay grade but the main take-away seemed to be that building a map for an individual MP11 was going to be hideously expensive! Up in the high hundreds of dollars! Per map/ecu! You can imagine your average Guzzi owner who is so mean they can peel and eat an orange without taking their hands out of their pockets lining up around the block for that can’t you? NOT!

No doubt there will be the usual tribes of clueless charlatans jumping out from behind bushes waving their cheap fetishes to ward off the demons of ‘Power sapping emissions controls forced on us by the evil gubmint’ by tricking some aspect of the sensors to pour in and waste more fuel and damage the engine and environment for no gain but they’ve been around forever! Hopefully they won’t actually do anything downright dangerous, but who knows?

Since I don’t think I’ll ever own one of these shiny, glittering monsters it doesn’t really matter to me. I retired yesterday. My shit all works. I’m good.

Congrats on retirement Pete. Time for travel. You and Jude are welcome here of course. Melbourne would be like a summer holiday for you right now weather wise, lol.

Phil

Edited June 30 by Lucky Phil

[pete roper]

It’s 1.15PM and 4*C right now, and drizzling. Yesterday was sunny and 12*C at this time and I got a nice shake-down run in to Captains Flat on my new Mana GT. It won’t be getting a gallop today!

Rides just like I remember my one in the US did with all its luggage on.

 

 

 

 

Just fine. It really is a superlative little lightweight tourer.

Edited June 30 by pete roper

[audiomick]

Haven't read all of everthing in the thread, but:

Firstly, Beard is working on the V85 TT to get Guzzidiag going. I'm quite sure he will figure it out in time.

 

Secondly, from what I have read elsewhere, Roland Däs has developed a number of new maps for the V85 TT E5. I'm sure they are not all useless.

https://www.daes-mototec.de/index.php/home.html

Edited June 30 by audiomick

[guzzler]

19 hours ago, pete roper said:

It’s 1.15PM and 4*C right now, and drizzling. Yesterday was sunny and 12*C at this time and I got a nice shake-down run in to Captains Flat on my new Mana GT. It won’t be getting a gallop today!

Rides just like I remember my one in the US did with all its luggage on.

 

 

 

 

Just fine. It really is a superlative little lightweight tourer.

Didn't happen to see any levitating schooners.......?

Then again, they reckon the ghost has shuffled off now.