LIQUI MOLY 5W40 lab analysis after 4,000 miles in a 2004 V11 with 35k miles total.

[p6x]

There have been a lot of recurrent questions about which oil is best for our beloved Vs.

I have decided to get an oil analysis after each oil change on my V11; starting with Liqui Moly. Next will be Motul V Twin.

Now, if the high copper contents is confirmed for my next oil change, what should I look at changing for those of you that have gone through that already.

 

 

[Lucky Phil]

2 minutes ago, p6x said:

There have been a lot of recurrent questions about which oil is best for our beloved Vs.

I have decided to get an oil analysis after each oil change on my V11; starting with Liqui Moly. Next will be Motul V Twin.

Now, if the high copper contents is confirmed for my next oil change, what should I look at changing for those of you that have gone through that already.

 

 

The copper will be from the rocker arm brass/bronze shims and valve guides. A known heavy wear item on a Guzzi BB engine. 

[gstallons]

What company do y'all use . The company I was working for had  Cat equipment and sent everything to Cat . I have no idea what these cost either ?

Edited August 7 by gstallons
spelling error

[p6x]

4 hours ago, gstallons said:

What company do y'all use . The company I was working for had 995 Cat equipment and sent everything to Cat . I have no idea what these cost either ?

You can easily find them on the Internet. Blackstone Laboratories.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/engine-types/motorcycle/

This is the analysis I ordered: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/product/oil-tbn/

The basic analysis is $35.

I personally think it is a good way to check that nothing is abnormal in your engine.

Here's a write-up about the benefits of getting an oil baseline for your motorcycle. Obviously, a way for the laboratory to get more customers.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/motorcycle-analysis/

Edited August 7 by p6x

[Lucky Phil]

5 minutes ago, p6x said:

You can easily find them on the Internet. Blackstone Laboratories.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/engine-types/motorcycle/

This is the analysis I ordered: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/product/oil-tbn/

The basic analysis is $35.

I personally think it is a good way to check that nothing is abnormal in your engine.

I used to take oil samples for analysis as part of my job on commercial jet engines and send them off to Mobil labs for reports etc. Every engine had it's records kept and reviewed as part of it's history. I also used to do the Mag plug pulls all the time to monitor specific engine areas for problems so I'm fairly well versed in this area. The car forums are full of guys that send their oil out to Blackstones for regular analysis and in my opinion they are basically deluded. Same for the motorcycle world but to a lesser extent. An oil analysis programme is designed for commercial use such as airlines and trucking companies and earth moving equipment etc where you can't afford to have machinery down and or there is a lot of money to be saved in catching internal issues early before a failure or in the case of light aircraft engines an in flight failure where the consequences can be dire. The powerplants are also often working in the upper regions of their design parameters so are being pushed fairly hard. it's not really designed for the average Joe to do on his road vehicles. Why you may ask? Well because you need to ask yourself a simple question. Am I prepared to remove and strip down an engine on the strength of an oil report or a series of oil reports that show a particular trending? If there's any hesitation in the answer "yes I am" then you are wasting your time and just giving yourself something to worry about and keep you up at nights. 

In large organisations the answer is an unequivocal "yes" and that's what happens. The 10 million dollar engine is pulled and sent to the shop for a strip down or part strip down and component replacement. It's a commercial decision. Private owners, well not so much. Emotion and the hip pocket become seriously involved. Can you imagine having a discussion with a manufacturer about a replacement engine under warranty for your car that is running fine and giving no issues on the strength of an oil analysis that had a question mark in some area/s. I'd love to be at that meeting. I know what the outcome would be. 

No, a UOA programme is not for the average owner. Having one done to give piece of mind or confirm a suspicion from time to time maybe, but in general it's a complication you don't need. The car guys all proudly present their Blackstone reports on forums that are all fine no issues of course but they still don't have an answer for the "what if it's not perfect" or there are questionable areas. None have an answer for that, so in my view it's just naval gazing for the sake of it. I guess the next must do trend will be regular boroscopes of the cylinders, lol. Of course Labs that do the UOA aren't going to turn business away and happily get on the band wagon of the deluded. Business is business after all. 

Phil  

[gstallons]

The first paragraph is good . Sanitary oil analysis is of course hyper critical . Most places just "fill the bottle" or have an ignorant procedure they think is the way to go. We (the prole) just followed orders.

The second and third paragraphs are GREAT !

[Pressureangle]

I was fleet manager at a mulch manufacturer. We had 3 big grinders, 1000HP Caterpillar V12s. They ran WOT 10 hours a day, idling at lunch. The grinders had an automatic feeder, stuffing logs in until it drug the motor down to 1800RPM, then reverse that backed the load out until the engine reached 2200RPM and start the cycle again. Literally throttle to the firewall the entire time. They usually lasted about 10k hours before rebuild; the problem was, if something broke it was *extremely* expensive. In 2004, the major overhaul kit alone was about $12k plus out of service for a month. Oil tests let us catch them before they ruined heads, or turbos, or cranks. 

[motortouring]

Very interesting topic. And I am again impressed by all the knowledge in this group.

I was never in a business with these type of combustion engines that Phil describes, so please see my remark with this disclaimer. 

We supplied small series machines that were critical to a certain extend and used a preventive maintenance schedule. This included several of the points mentioned earlier like magnet plugs inspection. Over the course of time we were pretty good in using experience from one series of machines to the other. I wonder if this would not be a more effective way to deal with the state of maintenance of our V11s. That said, interesting to find the high amount of copper in the oil sample. It is little extra check, but when checking the valves in 20 minutes more you can easily check the bronze bearings and its axles. And then retorquing(is this a word?) the head bolds is also only a few minutes.

 

[audiomick]

7 minutes ago, motortouring said:

... retorquing (is this a word?) ...

Yes, although some might use a hyphen in there: re-torquing

[Weegie]

Generally agree Phil and had similar experience with large gas turbine machines, but power generation, for the majority, in my case.

Oil sampling may have a valid application for race engines or if you do Winter maintenance yourself and like tinkering.

Perhaps a particular anomally might lead to an investigative tear down to check. After all Guzzis are easy to work on generally and acess good. Better checked in the Winter than tearing down an engine when you could be riding in the summer.

Thing is though generally something like our engines will usually give you plenty of other warnings before going ballistic.

As for borescopes, these can be had for relatively little money these days too and IMHO also have their uses, even if that is just for peace of mind.

Just saying it's horses for courses, I'm probably a little OCD, but I've never been tempted to go down that rabbit hole (yet).

[motortouring]

55 minutes ago, Weegie said:

I'm probably a little OCD, but I've never been tempted to go down that rabbit hole (yet).

Aren't we all? It's not a binary thing you know. :-)

[audiomick]

1 hour ago, motortouring said:

Aren't we all?

I know I am.

[pete roper]

I use good oil from a reputable company. My engines, or gearboxes, or bevelboxes, rarely go ‘Udders Skywards’. If they do it is very unlikely to be the fault of the oil.

Case in point. My recently acquired Mana GT has a 10/40 specified. As I expected it wasn’t filled correctly because, being a semi dry sump engine people can’t get their heads around the fact you have to fill it more than once. Consequently it was almost a litre down. Not a big deal, it has plenty, but I refilled it with what I had lying around which is the 0/20 used in my Suzuki Jimny. It hasn’t blown up yet……

[gstallons]

The magnetic plug sampling seems to be the most important sample method I can think of . You get to turn in the metal particles (for evaluating) that were / are floating around . I had a boss that diagnosed a knock in a D-6 dozer from an oil sample . Pretty slick . I have not forgotten that . The upper rod bushing had failed was his diagnosis and he was right .  It had common rail FI and they were able to disable each cylinder to know which piston was down.

 I have worked at some places where there were some incredible sampling procedures . Rexroth had the best info and practices on sampling procedure .  If it is done correctly , it is a methodical procedure . 

 For those who have done this know , new oil is just as dirty as old oil. It just doesn't have the same junk in it . 

For the average Joe , looking at an evaluation sheet may be "for entertainment purposes only" .

Edited August 8 by gstallons

[audiomick]

21 minutes ago, pete roper said:

It hasn’t blown up yet……

If you don't give it too much of a caning, it probably wont.

 

Seriously, though, what theoretically happens to the viscosity when one mixes weights like that? Do you now, theoretically, have 0W40 in the motor, or 10W20, or chicken soup? Just asking for the sake of knowing.

 

Whilst we are on the topic, more or less, I find it difficult to get straight answers to those sort of questions. People are willing to say "use only good oil", or "stick to the manufacturers recommendation", but don`t seem all that willing to make statements about what the "window" is, and why. I'm happy to stick to what is in the manual, and buy quality products, but I would like to know why over and above "because the manufacturer specified that".