LIQUI MOLY 5W40 lab analysis after 4,000 miles in a 2004 V11 with 35k miles total.

[gstallons]

Hmmm. this question is gonna have little or a lot of response.  This answer can be divided into bikes /  cars . Me , i do not mix viscosity , brands , nothing.  I run premium quality oils and  , if my memory cooperates , oil change intervals. 

 5w20 and 5w30 I think if you are in a bind , you can mix to "get you where you are going" .  Now . I think Toyota has 0w15 oil. This has to be about like kerosene ! 

[motortouring]

I heard something about these low-viscosity oils having a better performance on the emissions. Since a part of the emission tests is with a relative cold engine the 0Wxx or 5Wxx have less resistance than the 10W. 

[GuzziMoto]

1 hour ago, audiomick said:

If you don't give it too much of a caning, it probably wont.

 

Seriously, though, what theoretically happens to the viscosity when one mixes weights like that? Do you now, theoretically, have 0W40 in the motor, or 10W20, or chicken soup? Just asking for the sake of knowing.

 

Whilst we are on the topic, more or less, I find it difficult to get straight answers to those sort of questions. People are willing to say "use only good oil", or "stick to the manufacturers recommendation", but don`t seem all that willing to make statements about what the "window" is, and why. I'm happy to stick to what is in the manual, and buy quality products, but I would like to know why over and above "because the manufacturer specified that".

Well. if the engine held four quarts and two of those quarts were 10/w40 while two quarts were 0/w20, the resulting oil would be roughly a 5/w30. If of the four quarts three were 10/w40 while one was the 0/w20, the resulting oil would be roughly a 7.5/w35. Oils tend to mix like that. three quarts of a 40 weight oil and one quart of a 20 weight oil makes a 35 weight oil. You can figure it out by averaging the oils. People will do something similar with fork oils, you can mix 10 weight fork oil and 5 weight fork oil to make 7.5 weight fork oil.

But I agree with what Pete said, putting a quart of non-spec oil in when you find you are low on oil is not going to do damage to the engine. It would be far riskier to run the engine with too little oil. In the end, especially with fairly simple engines like Guzzi engines, the most important aspect to the engine oil is that it has engine oil. You should use the recommended oil. But if you add a quart of something else for whatever reason to get the oil level where it is supposed to be that isn't going to damage anything. Guzzi engines just aren't that oil critical. Some engines use engine oil to perform various hydraulic functions, my Jeep engine uses oil pressure to run the variable cam timing, and uses two different oil pumps at two different pressures to allow that. A Guzzi engine typically doesn't have any of that.

Edited August 8 by GuzziMoto

[p6x]

8 hours ago, Weegie said:

Thing is though generally something like our engines will usually give you plenty of other warnings before going ballistic.

I think your engine oil may give you clues of an impending major issue before other warning could be perceived. I have only had a broken engine once so far. It was in Italy with an Alfa Romeo. Driving from Pescara to Roma to catch a plane. I was on the highway, posted speed, suddenly the engine threw a rod. It was one of the Alpha Romeo with the "boxer" engine. Zero warning. It was a rental car which I had gotten for that trip.

If you look at the analysis comment in the Blackstone Lab's report, my copper ppm is above what is generally acceptable. As far as I can tell, my bike has never performed so well.

The 3000 rpm gurgle has vanished, and it goes like the wind.

I am making the oil analysis analogy with the annual medical checkup certain companies impose on you have 50 years. All those colonoscopies that would help nipping a disease in the bud.

I worked 35 years in the oilfield business, and with each and every well came sample analysis.

Maybe doing an oil analysis on each of your oil change is overkill, but I would rather spend 35 dollars more every 3k miles, than having a broken engine, if I can help it.

[Weegie]

I agree and an oil analysis will, most likely, highlight problems sooner than a mechanical issue than a noise or vibration.

I thought I said as much in my first post.

I don't do it, because it's more expensive in the UK and I very much doubt I'd have the requisite skills to accurately diagnose the exact cause.

The cam to valve transmission train as suggested by Phil, the bearing caps, me no clue? All it would tell me is my engine might be developing a problem. Personally I doubt I'd tear an engine down to investigate based on that alone

If it was going Dogga Dogga then I would and yes all engines can suddenly go bang, it's all down to known faults and probabilities. All an analysis would do for me is worry and ruin every run out I had.............BUT THAT'S JUST ME

If your skills diagnositc skills are better than mine, which honestly would not be hard, great it will then save you time and expense in the long run.+

[audiomick]

2 hours ago, p6x said:

Maybe doing an oil analysis on each of your oil change is overkill, but I would rather spend 35 dollars more every 3k miles, than having a broken engine, if I can help it.

Yep, understand that completely.

@GuzziMoto thank you very much for that answer. Very good to know.

 

I have another question that I have been trying to get a straight up answer to for a while: as far as I can tell from everything I have read, it is ok to "extend" the viscosity range, both above and below, that the factory specified. For instance, for the older small block motors, 20W40 was specified for the motor. The spec for later versions became at some point 10W60. My impression is, I could run the 10W60 that my Breva 750 is supposed to get also in my V35 Imola. Am I right, or not? If not, why not?

One restraint about "extending" the viscosity range: apparantly if the oil in the gearbox or final drive is too far towards heavy, it can run too warm. A very well informed ex-guzzi mechanic recently posted a photo elsewhere showing how the grease in the needle roller bearing in the outer side of the final drive of a V11 had melted because the oil in the final drive was very heavy, and an extended "spirited" ride had caused it all to get a bit warm.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, audiomick said:

Yep, understand that completely.

@GuzziMoto thank you very much for that answer. Very good to know.

 

I have another question that I have been trying to get a straight up answer to for a while: as far as I can tell from everything I have read, it is ok to "extend" the viscosity range, both above and below, that the factory specified. For instance, for the older small block motors, 20W40 was specified for the motor. The spec for later versions became at some point 10W60. My impression is, I could run the 10W60 that my Breva 750 is supposed to get also in my V35 Imola. Am I right, or not? If not, why not?

One restraint about "extending" the viscosity range: apparantly if the oil in the gearbox or final drive is too far towards heavy, it can run too warm. A very well informed ex-guzzi mechanic recently posted a photo elsewhere showing how the grease in the needle roller bearing in the outer side of the final drive of a V11 had melted because the oil in the final drive was very heavy, and an extended "spirited" ride had caused it all to get a bit warm.

The oil viscosity range Mick is usage and operating temperature dependent. So for 99% of engines it can be varied dependent on local conditions and use. Having said that here's a blanket statement I'd be prepared to die on a hill for. The modern switch to 0W-20/16 and even 12 now are nothing to do with the long term benefit or health of the engine. They are 100% about squeezing the maximum fuel economy to reach the regulatory fuel economy targets set by governing bodies. The 0W part is fine and I've used 0W-40 Mobil 1 in the old Sport engine for years along with all the cars I drove over that time. It's still a great oil BTW. The issue is with the very low upper range viscosities. They are about saving fuel. Do some race teams use the 20 weight? Sure they do but that's "some" race engines where they aren't concerned about wear but horsepower and the engines are torn down after very short duty. They accept the extra wear. My Supra with the BMW B58 inline turbo six engine comes with 0W-20 standard and no other alternatives from the factory. After 1000klms it's out and a 5W-30 is used. Same with the other 2 newish cars I own. The 0/5W covers the cold temp with ease in my climate and the increase to 30 weight covers the normal temp running. It's a bit like the auto start stop in modern cars. They are 100% about saving fuel to the detriment of the mechanicals. I know they uprate the starting and electrical systems to cope and have additional coating on the big end and main shells but what does that tell you? It tells you the engine doesn't like start/stop functionality and it needs additional work to try and mitigate it. I always turn it off in all the cars. 

Btw when using even a modern multi viscosity group 4 oil try and keep the viscosity spread to a minimum. It's not massively critical if you change oil at reduced intervals but even full synthetic oils still use VI improvers that break down over mileage and a 0W-40 uses more than a 0w-30 or a 5/10W-40. The latest SP rated oils are out now which have LSPI protection for direct injection engines but also enhanced cam chain wear protection as well.

For the German climate Mick I'd run the Sport/Le Mans on a 0W-30/40 due to the colder climate although I don't suppose you ride in temps below 10C. For a DD car in your climate used in all weather conditions it would be a 0W-30 for sure. 

Phil  

Edited August 8 by Lucky Phil

[audiomick]

Thanks, Phil. The "climate, usage and operating temperature" is something I am trying to factor in to the equation. I ride all of the bikes all year. That means up to about 32°C in summer, and down to 0°C in winter, or maybe a bit below if I don't pay attention to the weather forecast. Lots of short trips in the city with the V35 Imola and the Breva 750. I try and avoid too much of that with the V11. I figure the 10W60 should cover that in all three of them.

[pete roper]

What are the three functions oil performs?

[docc]

Just now, pete roper said:

What are the three functions oil performs?

Lubrication, cooling, and forum fodder?

[audiomick]

Lubricating, cooling a bit, making a mess of the workshop floor? I dunno, do tell.

 

EDIT: docc posted whilst I was writing. I hate it when he is quicker than me.

Edited August 8 by audiomick

[Lucky Phil]

37 minutes ago, audiomick said:

Thanks, Phil. The "climate, usage and operating temperature" is something I am trying to factor in to the equation. I ride all of the bikes all year. That means up to about 32°C in summer, and down to 0°C in winter, or maybe a bit below if I don't pay attention to the weather forecast. Lots of short trips in the city with the V35 Imola and the Breva 750. I try and avoid too much of that with the V11. I figure the 10W60 should cover that in all three of them.

The 10W-60 is a total overkill Mick. I use 10W-60 for my bike with the Daytona engine but those engines have very specific needs. Primarily to hold up the oil pressure at idle in very hot weather in traffic and it's higher levels of Zink ( in this particular brand) for the stressed valve gear in this engine. 10W-60 isn't great in terms of viscosity range spread as it's very wide so the oil changes need to be much more frequent. I'd be using a full synthetic 0W-30 or 40 at the most in your climate with ZDDP around the 1000ppm or slightly higher if possible. Remember it's impossible in reality to have a winter viscosity that's too low in a group 4 oil esp in colder climates. At low OAT's the 0W is still a lot more viscous than even a 40 weight at operating temperature so it's never going to be "too thin"

Phil

[Lucky Phil]

3 minutes ago, pete roper said:

What are the three functions oil performs?

Lubrication, cooling and cleaning.

Phil

[audiomick]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

...ZDDP around the 1000ppm ...

What's one of them when it is at home?

[audiomick]

35 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

The 10W-60 is a total overkill ...

..... the stressed valve gear in this engine...

Ok, overkill. I hear what you're saying, but I'm interested in knowing if it is bad for the motor in any way. Going by what you have said, regular oil changes are important. Are there any other disadvantages apart from the cost of th oil?

Regarding stressed valve gear, that is an issue with the small block motors too. The 2 valve motors aren't that critical. Particularly the Breva 750 is not particularly affected, as the later models had single valve springs that didn't give the valves such a hard time. The earlier ones, like the V35 II motor in the Imola, had double valve springs that were too hard, and the valve gear is highly stressed as a result. They need a fairly high viscosity oil.

Particularly the 4-valve small blocks had chronic valve problems. My Imola has a 2 valve motor, but I have most of a 4-valve motor sitting on the shelf, and maybe one day I will put it together and bolt it into the Imola.

Edited August 9 by audiomick