Guest warsaw Posted June 25, 2004 Posted June 25, 2004 Hi V11 people. Since buying the rosso mandello I have found the front end to patter at speed. Previously I rode a BMW GS1100 with impeccable steering. Before that I had a Ducati 900ss which also steered precisely. The V11 feels vague too. Should I stiffen things up a bit. Perhaps I just need to get used to the bike's characteristics. I have taken it up to an indicated 130 and the front end feels lively at 100 upwards. WARSAW
Guest Gary Cheek Posted June 25, 2004 Posted June 25, 2004 Hi BMW person, Geez it sounds like time to get the manual out and start tuning . Could be your weight or some other factor . If the Rosso doesn't steer at least as well as the GS 1100 there is something amiss with your bike . Should be fairly simple to get tuned in . It has been at least a year since I rode a 900SS but my good riding buddy , Mike LeBow was very happy with the 2001 V11 after a good test ride . The former owner of my Scura had a 900SS prior to the Scura and he too preferred the Guzzi handling ,in fact he liked the Guzzi far better than the Duc ..
Guest warsaw Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Hi There Thanks for the comment. I have taken out my damper to minimum which riders reccommend. Though one wonders why Aprilia lengthened the wheelbase on these bikes. Perhaps they found a way of improving the ride.
gthyni Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 hough one wonders why Aprilia lengthened the wheelbase on these bikes. Perhaps they found a way of improving the ride. I think that when introducing the LeMans they did a small change to the geometry to make the chassi slightly more SportTouring and slightly less Sport - meaning a little less agility and a little more stability.
Guest Gary Cheek Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 From what I hear they put more rake into the front end , lenghthed the wheel base to make the bike more "stable" at higher speeds . I'm with you , it was a poor trade off . I have both a V11 Scura and a 2001 V11 and without a doubt the 2001 is a lot more to my liking (Except for a little glitch with the friggin gearbox !! ). So far the jury is still out on the "OHLINS" goodies . Some folks will say the Ohlins stuff is set up for a 170 pound rider and may be sprung too light for me . If anything it is too STIFF ! Still others say I should pay the factory rep to tune it for me ????? Wow ,after seeing the high $$$ "repairs " performed on my buddy's Cagiva I'm a bit hesitant . Besides what the heck good is it if I can tune in the standard Guzzi stuff myself and get excellent results but have to PAY for a "better" suspension and PAY AGAIN in the HOPE they can tune it in ? As the Ohlins people suggest . Not saying the OHLINS are horrible just that they may not pay in the long run . I was very impressed last September with the Guzzi test ride Cafe Sport . The Ohlins worked well . Thing is the Marzocchi/Sachs works very well too . Of course, the OHLINS are nice looking and the poser power cannot be denied ! Sometimes I'm afraid the motorcycle folks are becoming too much like the high end audio people . Esoteric is everything ! Maybe you need to put a few more miles on it (another OHLINS line !) Really though I think a little time and effort will get you a real nice bike ,even with the longer base/stretched neck .
al_roethlisberger Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Some folks will say the Ohlins is set up for a 170 pound rider and may be sprung too light for me . If anything it is too STIFF ! .... this is actually a classic sign of being undersprung, especially if one has cranked up the preload or compression damping to counteract the undersprung shock/forks Also, undersprung forks tend to pack down. I'd be very interested to hear how your impression of the 2002 versus 2001 handling changes once the Scura suspension is setup for your weight. al P.S. Just to be clear for those reading this thread, all 2002+ V11 Sport models such as the LeMans, Sport, Naked, Scura, etc.. have the slightly longer wheelbase. It's not just the LeMans, although interestingly that might have been a good marketing move to differentiate the LeMans from the Sport/Naked had they only applied the longer frame to the LeMans. Ah well....
Baldini Posted June 26, 2004 Posted June 26, 2004 Some folks will say the Ohlins is set up for a 170 pound rider and may be sprung too light for me . If anything it is too STIFF ! ... have to PAY for a "better" suspension and PAY AGAIN in the HOPE they can tune it in ..Not saying the OHLINS are horrible just that they may not pay in the long run ...etc... Std Scura springs are too soft for average & heavier rider. To get sag & any sort of handling, preload & damping has to be cranked up making suspension seem very STIFF. Only way is putting in correct springs for your weight. Huge range of adjustment on Ohlins means they can be set up very badly, esp on std springs, making bike a real pig, bouncing, wallowing, running wide - whatever you want. I knew nothing much about suspension adjustment when I got Scura 18 months ago. I was real dissappointed with handling. It's took me to now to get it pretty sorted. I asked people who knew, on this forum & elsewhere - you don't need to employ anyone to do it for you unless you just can't be arsed to learn it yourself. I'm sick of people slagging the Ohlins cos they either don't need the performance & can't imagine therefore why anyone else should, or can't make the effort to get them set up right. OHLINS SUSPENSIONS WORK REAL WELL...but you got to put it in to get it out. If you don't see the point, give em to someone who can use em... KB
al_roethlisberger Posted June 27, 2004 Posted June 27, 2004 Missing Gary Cheek post.... where'd it go?? Anyway .... goodness, I was just suggesting new springs might make them work optimally Even the Marz are typically setup for a 170-180lb rider, and without inserting spacers, aren't adjustable for preload(2002 and earlier)... and as such also can benefit from new springs. I think all things being equal, that is, both the Marz and Ohlins have the correct spring rate for the rider, and are setup "close enough" WRT comp/rebound damping, the Ohlins will come out ahead. Is that enough justification for someone to splurge for the Ohlins if they already have the Marz and are more-or-less happy with them?? ...well that's a personal choice, and in many cases the difference is probably not great enough for some to want to deal with the hassle and cost. I can understand that. I have no stock in Ohlins, and know for a fact that I do not ride beyond the capabilities of either the Marz nor Ohlins, but since this is my only bike... and I enjoy "tinkering"... it was a personal choice to change out the suspension... which BTW, I had always intended to do once I was able. But I'm not trying to sell anyone on the Ohlins... nor deride the OEM Marz/Sachs combo, as many are satisfied with the performance of the latter. As always, YMMV al
gthyni Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 (edited) Hmm, I think we are missing the important point here: The suberb quality of the Öhlins means: - Lower inner resistance - predictable behaviour - good adjustablility makes it EASIER to dial it in. Read a Ducati forum, the diffence between the Showa and Öhlins parts in not the range adjustability but the ease and predictability of the setup. Of course, as usual, you still need to know what you are doing. (not implying anyone here does not, but it might be someone out there tampering with suspension who doesn't). Edited June 28, 2004 by gthyni
Baldini Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Or course you still need to know what you are doing. Exactly...but with range of adjustment available, if you don't know what you're doing ... There's a world of difference between the feel on mine now from when I first got it...cos I've spent a lot of time trying to figure set up from a position of complete ignorance...NOW it's easier, but at first I hadn't got a clue... KB
badmotogoozer Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Properly set up for the rider there is nothing wrong with the Sachs/Marz suspension. In fact these are some very high quality parts. First set your sag - easily done in the rear, toss some spacers in the fronts to play with different "spring" combinations. When you find the one that works you will have an idea of what springs you need to order. Once sag is set, play with the damping for a day on your favorite bit of road. 2 clicks at a time to feel the difference. Most riders will never ride to the limits of their suspension, and this setup is very good. Ohlins are better. You will pay big $ for this minor improvement in suspension and ease of use. Spend a bit of time with what you have, once you get it sorted you never have to touch it again. cheers, Rj
Guest Gary Cheek Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Getting Ohlins dialed in is easy indeed . I never said otherwise. I SAID the OHLINS officianados tend to come up with all kinds of reasons when you don't see Ohlins as the suspension of the gods . Among the typical condescension is "maybe you should pay a factory tech to set them up " My response is THEY AREN"T HARD TO DO and FROM WHAT THE FACTORY GUYS DID TO MY BUDDIES CAGIVA they aren't gettting NEAR any of my stuff . Not to mention how ridiculous is it to pay that much money then pay them again to "get it right " . I wouldn't say they are any harder or easier to tune than the Marz/Sachs different ? YES . The others who would lead you to believe they have mastered some combination of black art and quantum physics to get them dialed in hysterical . Of course they conclude that if for some reason you don't like it you should follow their further flawed logic and give the stuff away ! Didn't say I don't like it ,just questioning the diminishing returns . Surely the OHLEENS are easy to adjust compared to getting that point across to a rage blinded OHLEENS fanatic The point is the Marz /Sachs stuff works real well and for some (most??) the Ohlins may well be a waste of money especially if ,like some others it takes you 18 months to dial them in . OR as others suggest "you need to have the factory tune them . Even MORE "You need to buy three new springs for your brand new bike THEN have the facry "techs" tune them in !! I don't agree with the comments just questioning the rationale behind the conclusions . The point is ,once they are dialed in they may not be the magic that the hype would lead one to expect . If you can't afford the OHLEENS ,the Marz/Sachs will serve you very well and you probably will never miss the OHLEENS in the long run . The Marzocchi/Sachs works great and is a snap to set up . The OHLEENS likewise ,for a pile of extra $$ . Is cost an issue ? If it isn't an issue why are you riding a GUZZI ?
Paul Minnaert Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Is cost an issue ? If it isn't an issue why are you riding a GUZZI ? I don't know what I should buy else, what was your bike then when you had more money? Guzzi's aren't that cheap that cheapness is the reason. Then I would have had a jap bike. You aren't refering to the american dream I hope? I will never buy such a bike because image created around it. And they are fugly
al_roethlisberger Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Getting Ohlins dialed in is easy indeed . I never said otherwise. I SAID the OHLINS officianados tend to come up with all kinds of reasons when you don't see Ohlins as the suspension of the gods . Among the typical condescension is "maybe you should pay a factory tech to set them up " My response is THEY AREN"T HARD TO DO and FROM WHAT THE FACTORY GUYS DID TO MY BUDDIES CAGIVA they aren't gettting NEAR any of my stuff . Not to mention how ridiculous is it to pay that much money then pay them again to "get it right " . I wouldn't say they are any harder or easier to tune than the Marz/Sachs different ? YES . The others who would lead you to believe they have mastered some combination of black art and quantum physics to get them dialed in hysterical . Of course they conclude that if for some reason you don't like it you should follow their further flawed logic and give the stuff away ! Didn't say I don't like it ,just questioning the diminishing returns . Surely the OHLEENS are easy to adjust compared to getting that point across to a rage blinded OHLEENS fanatic The point is the Marz /Sachs stuff works real well and for some (most??) the Ohlins may well be a waste of money especially if ,like some others it takes you 18 months to dial them in . OR as others suggest "you need to have the factory tune them . Even MORE "You need to buy three new springs for your brand new bike THEN have the facry "techs" tune them in !! I don't agree with the comments just questioning the rationale behind the conclusions . The point is ,once they are dialed in they may not be the magic that the hype would lead one to expect . If you can't afford the OHLEENS ,the Marz/Sachs will serve you very well and you probably will never miss the OHLEENS in the long run . The Marzocchi/Sachs works great and is a snap to set up . The OHLEENS likewise ,for a pile of extra $$ . Is cost an issue ? If it isn't an issue why are you riding a GUZZI ? Gary, it sounds like you've been possibly getting the run-around elsewhere WRT getting your Ohlins suspension dialed-in?? ....and if so, I can understand your frustration. I don't think anyone here however has suggested(at least in this thread) things such as spending big money on getting a "factory tech" to get the suspension dialed-in though, and instead are simply suggesting the normal procedures for getting them setup properly... the same as would be used to get the Marz/Sachs to perform well also. I wouldn't suggest however that the need to buy new springs is unreasonable though if necessary, regardless of the suspension brand, or motorcycle. Every suspension class I have attended has pointed this out as one of the *first* "non adjustment" suspension modifications one should consider if it becomes obvious that the bike is undersprung for one's weight, and the suspension cannot be dialed-in at it's extremes. This is quite common in North America where we like our cheeseburgers ... but the bike(again, many brands) is sprung for a 170lb 20 year old So it's not unique to Ohlins, or Guzzi as a recommendation. It's just part of tuning the bike to one's needs/requirements. And other than perhaps gthyni's gloowing comments , I also don't think anyone here is pushing the Ohlins suspension, nor deriding the Marz/Sachs or arguing... just offering their experiences. At least it comes across that way to me As the self-help people often say, "I think we are in 'violent agreement'" The Marz/Sachs can and are just fine for most people, perhaps almost everyone, if setup properly. The Ohlins are nice too, and perhaps for some, 'overpriced' for the incremental improvement they offer , making their purchase perhaps a personal choice, not really an objective one.... and that's OK too. However, all that being said, I do believe that if one has a properly setup(by luck, or patience) set of Ohlins(or similar 'top shelf' suspension), the difference between them and stock suspension(even if setup correctly) is noticeable. Is that required to ride the bike well and comfortably in a street/real-world environment?? Perhaps not, but just 'noticeably' better ....that seems to be the consensus from many owners, even those that are plenty happy with the Marz/Sachs kit. And as an aside, even if one doesn't think it is necessary to replace a perfectly good working set of the Marz forks, or Sachs shock.... I *do* recommend shopping for an Ohlins, Penske, et al... part if the OEM fails or gets damaged. Because, unless one buys a used replacement, the cost of a new Marz fork or Sachs shock from Guzzi just doesn't make sense when one can get the 'better' suspension in the aftermarket for about the same, or just a bit more. But as always, if possible I simply recommend a test-ride on all the possible setups to satisfy one's own curiosity. In then end, it's a personal preference, and for many, again... the Marz/Sachs setup may be just fine, especially if one is a "lighter" rider(which I am most definitely NOT ) One does not 'have' to have the Ohlins to have a bike that handles well, that is true. But it can be 'nice' to al
Guest Gary Cheek Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Is cost an issue ? If it isn't an issue why are you riding a GUZZI ? I don't know what I should buy else, what was your bike then when you had more money? Guzzi's aren't that cheap that cheapness is the reason. Then I would have had a jap bike. You aren't refering to the american dream I hope? I will never buy such a bike because image created around it. And they are fugly Paul ,you assume a bit too much . Some of your questions are based on erroneous assumptions .So they deserves no firther comment . There are indeed MUCH better bikes than Guzzis . They also ,at times cost more . It's a matter of bang for the buck or value for the money spent . Buy whatever (IMAGE) you want . If IMAGE is a deciding factor , you may be willing to pay more to improve the image . In that case OHLINS are a must !! No problem with that . For others the Marzocchi ?Sachs set up will do nicely . Ohlins work well ,are easy to tune BUT MAY NOT BE AN ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT FOR MANY PEOPLE The American dream ?? fugly ?? no ,bigotry is UGLY . Al ,. 1 . I am NOT having ANY problems setting up the friggin OHLEENS AGAIN: I am NOT having ANY problems setting up the friggin OHLEENS I have the preload BACKED OFF to get the proper sag , and the damping is backed off as well . It is WORKING well . "STIFF" is not a ride description but a reference to the backed off-to achieve sag/ride settings . NO PROBLEM ! I was responding to the common 'undersprung " utterance that is too often woven in with all the other Ohlins trueisms Yes we DO agree . The FRUSTRATION comes from the condecension that flows every time it is mentioned that the OHLINS are not an absolute prerequisite for an enjoyable machine . I have BOTH and YES the OHLINS are nice pieces BUT they MAY not justify the added cost . (for some people ) And if the elitists keep spouting "factory tech set up" or "you have to know what you are doing "(like THEY do ?) , "trash the factory springs" Etc, they are only reinforcing that point . Thank you . For what is charged they should be very close in tune and should not require huge additional costs , IF they are to be COST EFFECTIVE for MOST people . It is nice that Guzzi makes them available to people willing to pay the cost for the added performance and/or poser power . The V11 is a BALL , a real good bike for the money . Best $3500 bike I ever bought . In fact I like the '01 V11 better than the Scura as an overall package . For reasons other than the suspension system itself . Others results may vary of course . That's why Guzzi offers bikes with BOTH systems . It seems ,at last count the Ohlins hasn't been killing Marzocchi?Sachs in sales either ! (On GUZZI sport bikes)
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