UK Coppa Italia recommision

[gstallons]

AFA the engine condition , you should remove the alternator cover , spark plugs and try to bar the engine over with a ratchet/socket . It should rotate  SMOOTHLY with no snags or restrictions. It may be a little rough the first revolution or when you "break" the engine loose.

[wavey_davey1]

Well I haven't had a lot of time in the last few weeks, what with school holidays and a BSA 250 with bodged electrics (my brother's) to sort.

 

However I HAVE managed to remove the throttle bodies! Actually it was a (bit) easier than i was expecting. I was going to order a MAPP torch to heat the TBs to melt the red loctite, but managed to get the left hand one up to around 220C with my ordinary butane/propane mix blowtorch (as measured with an IR thermometer) and the very small bottom allen screws on the alloy tie bar came out good as gold, if a little nerve wracking as you slowly increase the torque!

 

I used a dremel with cutting wheel to carefully dress off the peening on the butterfly screws, marked the orientation of the butterflys for reassembly and took both assemblies apart (with lots of photos) following Lucky Phil's excellent guide in the "How tos" section. The left hand one looks ok, and I THINK the right hand one (with all the corrosion in the venturi and initially seized butterfly) might clean up ok?

However, this is what greeted me when I took the TPS off the spindle on top of the right hand TB - see pic.

The circlip and washer that sits above the spindle seal have both pretty much disintegrated! As with much of what I've uncovered on this bike, much of it is in fine fettle (on the surface at least) but then you come across something horrible?

I am going to dummy fit the spindle, which is badly corroded at the top back in the TB and see if the area the seal sits on is ok or toast.

If ok, then I use a local bike shop to vapour blast stuff and ultrasonic it all afterwards, they've done cylinder heads (Guzzi T3) and crankcases (BSA Rocket 3) for me with no issues with lodged blast media.

 

I've found a UK source for the seals, actually slightly cheaper as a Suzuki GS450 part (generic mikuni carb butterfly seals as per Phil's write up) over here - Suzuki part No. 13651-51011. If these work ok I'll add the details in that write up. The bushes also have some play but I've yet to remove those as I don't have a correct sized tap yet.

 

My gut feel tells me however that I'm going to have to source a LHS TB, we'll see? The seals and bushes aren't expensive so nothing to lose.

 

Hoping to make some progress this week but we'll see as loads of house jobs have been piling up!

 

The other nasty I uncovered is, peering into the inlet ports (I've removed the inlet manifolds) the inlet valves look horrible, with loads of deposits on the back of the valve heads on both sides? I expected with a lean running "modern" engine they'd look white(??), no such luck, is this typical?? see next pic, hard to photograph, I've tried to illuminate a bit better with a torch. both inlets look the same so nothing to do with corrosion. I'll post a pic on the next post.

[Lucky Phil]

3 minutes ago, wavey_davey1 said:

Well I haven't had a lot of time in the last few weeks, what with school holidays and a BSA 250 with bodged electrics (my brother's) to sort.

 

However I HAVE managed to remove the throttle bodies! Actually it was a (bit) easier than i was expecting. I was going to order a MAPP torch to heat the TBs to melt the red loctite, but managed to get the left hand one up to around 220C with my ordinary butane/propane mix blowtorch (as measured with an IR thermometer) and the very small bottom allen screws on the alloy tie bar came out good as gold, if a little nerve wracking as you slowly increase the torque!

 

I used a dremel with cutting wheel to carefully dress off the peening on the butterfly screws, marked the orientation of the butterflys for reassembly and took both assemblies apart (with lots of photos) following Lucky Phil's excellent guide in the "How tos" section. The left hand one looks ok, and I THINK the right hand one (with all the corrosion in the venturi and initially seized butterfly) might clean up ok?

However, this is what greeted me when I took the TPS off the spindle on top of the right hand TB - see pic.

The circlip and washer that sits above the spindle seal have both pretty much disintegrated! As with much of what I've uncovered on this bike, much of it is in fine fettle (on the surface at least) but then you come across something horrible?

I am going to dummy fit the spindle, which is badly corroded at the top back in the TB and see if the area the seal sits on is ok or toast.

If ok, then I use a local bike shop to vapour blast stuff and ultrasonic it all afterwards, they've done cylinder heads (Guzzi T3) and crankcases (BSA Rocket 3) for me with no issues with lodged blast media.

 

I've found a UK source for the seals, actually slightly cheaper as a Suzuki GS450 part (generic mikuni carb butterfly seals as per Phil's write up) over here - Suzuki part No. 13651-51011. If these work ok I'll add the details in that write up. The bushes also have some play but I've yet to remove those as I don't have a correct sized tap yet.

 

My gut feel tells me however that I'm going to have to source a LHS TB, we'll see? The seals and bushes aren't expensive so nothing to lose.

 

Hoping to make some progress this week but we'll see as loads of house jobs have been piling up!

 

The other nasty I uncovered is, peering into the inlet ports (I've removed the inlet manifolds) the inlet valves look horrible, with loads of deposits on the back of the valve heads on both sides? I expected with a lean running "modern" engine they'd look white(??), no such luck, is this typical?? see next pic, hard to photograph, I've tried to illuminate a bit better with a torch. both inlets look the same so nothing to do with corrosion. I'll post a pic on the next post.

A MAP torch doesn't usually have a fine enough tip for heating the bridge screws and you need to use great care as you can easily melt the alloy bridge very thing section around the retaining screw. The yamaha seals a re also very cheap and what I used. The p/n is in the thread I'm sure.

Phil

[wavey_davey1]

Correction - I meant "source a RIGHT hand side TB" in the post above!

 

Here's one of the inlet valves on an engine that's only (allegedly) done 20-something thousand miles? Hmmm. Comments from more knowledgeable people welcome (i.e. pretty much everyone on this forum!)

 

Also gawping at the inlet port which looked pretty crude (okay, some of my brit bikes have been ported by people who know what they're doing, not me) led me to read up on the "redesigned" ports this motor got compared to the previous Tonti motors. Hmm, not clever having a port that stops flowing well below max cam lift??

 

[wavey_davey1]

5 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

A MAP torch doesn't usually have a fine enough tip for heating the bridge screws and you need to use great care as you can easily melt the alloy bridge very thing section around the retaining screw. The yamaha seals a re also very cheap and what I used. The p/n is in the thread I'm sure.

Phil

Yes Phil, I googled your YAM part numbers and that's how I sourced the slightly cheaper Suzuki equivalents.

I was surprised my blowtorch was able to heat the TB body (I focused the tip of the blue flame section on the TB casting where the screws thread in, rather than the bridge, and only did the left hand TB as per your advice, as the bridge is thicker on that side. I'll only attempt the right hand bridge screws IF I have to replace that TB.

Thanks for your comments

[Lucky Phil]

On 9/3/2024 at 12:55 AM, wavey_davey1 said:

Correction - I meant "source a RIGHT hand side TB" in the post above!

 

Here's one of the inlet valves on an engine that's only (allegedly) done 20-something thousand miles? Hmmm. Comments from more knowledgeable people welcome (i.e. pretty much everyone on this forum!)

 

Also gawping at the inlet port which looked pretty crude (okay, some of my brit bikes have been ported by people who know what they're doing, not me) led me to read up on the "redesigned" ports this motor got compared to the previous Tonti motors. Hmm, not clever having a port that stops flowing well below max cam lift??

 

The valve is fine and the buildup to be expected on a 2 valve engine thats done a bit of suburban/commuter riding. Production port finish, same as just about any of the time

[Steve S]

Hey Davey I considered buying it myself and probably regretted missing it, I’m quite close to you and have a few v11 bits around, I removed a right hand  TB recently on a cafe sport and found the bottom screws were torx not Allan 

Edited September 6 by Steve S

[wavey_davey1]

Thanks for the comments guys.

I came to the conclusion that the right hand TB was toast, the shaft was so badly corroded at the top there was no way that it would seal effectively imo. I guess I could take a risk and try it with fresh seals, at least with the top seals there's little danger of leaking fuel, it just comes down to what any leakage does to the mixture? Anyhow, I managed to source a pair of what look like good condition TBs off eBay from Holland. they were a lot cheaper than the German ones listed, about the same price as a single TB from them. Got stung on duties (thanks Brexit) but they arrived within 2 days, pretty good going (Baboon Motorcycles).

So now I have the challenge of splitting THESE TBs to get them ON the bike!! I tried my previous technique with the Butane/Propane torch and, although it seemed to take longer to get the specific area of the TB up to 200C (and a bit)  I did get there, BUT the allen screw remained tight.

Maybe the previous ones on the bike had been removed previously, but they definitely had some threadlocker on the removed screws?? Anyhow, I will follow Phil's excellent article advice and see if my time-served engineer friend (who generally works on pre-war Nortons) can help out with his oxy torch. Fingers crossed! I'll probably change the seals in these as a precaution while they're off the bike in any case.

The only other progress I've made is draining the tank of what looks like very old fuel and removing the fuel pump/filter assy ready for a new filter (I happened to have a suitable one from when I serviced my mate's old Multistrada). The Mahle filter in there has a date stamp of 2003 so might be the original, though I imagine they aren't a short shelf life item so who knows?

I'm worried about the fuel pump anyway given how long it's been standing, there's a few Chinese knock-offs available, any experience here with alternatives given the cost of the Bosch item?? On the Ducati forums there's sometime talk of "black death" (black deposits in the plastic fuel filter) signalling a pump on the way out, but haven't found anything similar on here?

 

Have replaced the snapped brake reservoir on the handlebar in readiness for starting on the front calipers. both are sticking and all the fasteners are rusty, so fun ahead!

 

 

 

 

[wavey_davey1]

On 9/6/2024 at 9:34 AM, Steve S said:

Hey Davey I considered buying it myself and probably regretted missing it, I’m quite close to you and have a few v11 bits around, I removed a right hand  TB recently on a cafe sport and found the bottom screws were torx not Allan 

Definitely Allen on mine and the new ones. 

Hopefully when it's up and running/still a sad wreck you can come and admire/gloat at your near-miss!

P.s I bought the rack on eBay off you, in readiness for those pan-Europe tours I'll be undertaking on it, ha ha.

[wavey_davey1]

Oh, and I've ordered a stand off Becker Technik, which apparently utilise standard 1/2" drive sockets that fir over the Pork Chop nuts....

 

Then I realised my bike has aftermarket ("vital spirits"??) rearsets that fit OVER those pork chop nuts!! Oh dear..

 

Incidentally, not sure why the need for these rearsets (which appear to be quite nice bike specific not generic items) given they only move the footpegs less than an inch rearwards and upwards and it's not as if that's needed anyway? Maybe it's a ground clearance thing but suspect it's just a bling thing? I do have the std footrests in a box that came with it.

[docc]

Looks like plenty of clearance for a paddock stand to engage the lower frame side plate nuts.

[audiomick]

44 minutes ago, wavey_davey1 said:

... a stand off Becker Technik, which apparently utilise standard 1/2" drive sockets that fir over the Pork Chop nuts....

 

Then I realised my bike has aftermarket ("vital spirits"??) rearsets that fit OVER those pork chop nuts!! Oh dear..

No worries mate, you'll be right. Have a look at the pictures here. The stand mounts to the bottom-most nut on the pork chops, which appears in your photos to be accessible.

https://shop.becker-technik.de/en/products/central-lifter-24

 

I've got one of them, and it is brilliant.

[wavey_davey1]

Thanks for the clarification Mick, of course it's the bottom nuts, same as the Guzzi version 

[Coppa53]

Yes, it's difficult to believe that our spine frames are in the 20-to-24-year category.   I have owned my Coppa almost 10years.  

Keep up the good work in restoring yours. it's a labor of love.  In a few years I will qualify for Historical Plates. 

Regards, 

Joe 

[wavey_davey1]

OK, some progress, edging nearer the first fire-up!

Have successfully split the "new" TBs in readiness for new seals and fitment on the bike. Even with oxy fine torch one screw was stubborn , needed "shocking" with  small hammer & soft drift taps while applying torque finally did the trick, definitely a two man job.

 

New Becker stand arrived and works beautifully, so much nicer working on the bike now it's level!

I ordered the TB seals as that Suzuki part number I mentioned simply because Fowlers in Bristol had them in stock along with a new front axle nut to replace the horribly rusty one. Cheaper as an Aprilia part it turns out!! Fowlers have good Guzzi parts stocks and received next day. It took numerous careful soakings of the rusty nut with ATF/acetone mix (moving axle around on loosened pinch bolts to distribute the penetrating mix better) plus judicious use of a heat gun (so as not to melt the Ohlins decal!!) before I could free off that axle nut, there's not a lot of socket engagement on the shallow nut. Feels so nice gradually removing the random rusty fasteners on this bike.

 

Front calipers were semi seized, pads horribly rusty along with all the fasteners, nipples etc, but pistons looked ok. However I scored some better calipers with new pads on eBay at a price that didn't make it worth refurbing the old ones, as they came with nice stainless fasteners and bleed nipples. I now have two spare calipers that also match the ones on my (much modified) Laverda! All bled up with the new master cylinder reservoir.

 

Sump dropped, I wanted to see how much sludge or mayonnaise was in there. Looked surprisingly clean, no condensation at all and hardly any sludge. Gauze screen was perfectly clean too . Changed out the UFI filter for a Mahle from Gutsibits in readiness for new oil all round.

 

Tappets checked, one inlet about 1 thou loose, set to 6 thou inlet, 8 thou exhaust, all looked good in there too, no corrosion or condensation.

 

Fuel filter changed with proper single use Oetiker clips, tank plate had been leaking very slightly so have cleaned it up. gasket looks good so might try dressing with a thin smear of Blue Hylomar. I've used this in the past as it's "fuel-resistant" but not convinced it will stand up to immersion type situation. New gaskets are VERY expensive. The pump LOOKS ok, no corrosion from ethanol borne water so I'll just see how it goes (or doesn't)?

 

Final job so far is front alternator cover off (what a bar steward of a job with the front balance pipe!), turned engine over after 10cc of ATF/acetone mix into plug holes to free rings for 24 hours. A tiny bit of stiction on first revolution, then felt nice and smooth. I tried a compression test but speed of cranking with a ratchet handle on the front alternator nut resulted in a small blip of the needle then returned to zero on both cylinders? On the one hand, compression tests on all my kickstart bikes can't be that much quicker cranking, but compression FELT very healthy and similar on both cylinders? We shall see?

Next jobs, send off injectors to Jim at Superbike Surgery in Gloucestershire for full service (£25 each). When I told him on the phone what injectors they were he described them as "the worst injectors ever made", so that's encouraging .

https://www.superbikesurgery.co.uk/injector-servicing

Have ordered new earth leads to connect the (Shindengen!!) reg/rec and battery to the unused fuel filter studs on top of the spine. The original owner had 4(!!) ugly leads connecting battery, reg and both cylinder heads? I can't complain because the 30A fuse looks perfect and there's that much better reg/rec too. I had to sort my original greenie for my mate last year as the 30A fuse had melted and the whole thing was a mess.

I've put an order in to Gutsibits for a Roper plate (£120 with tax and postage), 4-8 week lead time as they're having another batch made, so will leave the sump off for now in case it arrives before I'm ready to fire her up! 

 

Change seals on the TBs before refitting, then rear wheel out ready for tyres, UJ greasing (not looking forward to that front one), clutch and rear brake bleeding etc. 

 

Getting there slowly..