UK Coppa Italia recommision

[wavey_davey1]

OK, apologies for lack of updates as life took over, but have made a fair bit of progress.

First off I dropped the sump and changed the filter and checked the screen, totally clean, and no signs of anything untoward (corrosion, emulsified oil). So decided NOT to wait for the Roper plate from Gutsibits and button it all back up with new stainless fasteners. Of course the roper plate arrived a few days after this decision .

 

The rear bevel box was a right mess with flaking paint, so I took out the rear wheel and then the bevel, all pretty straightforward. Removed all the flaking paint and a couple of coats of etch primer followed by the VHT case paint (already established as a good match for the rest of the satin black on the bike) and looking a lot better (see pic before final sanding and top coat).

With the wheel out I could take a better look around swing arm and gearbox area. Looking around the clutch slave cylinder there was some localised paint flaking underneath it (2nd pic). I reckoned this MIGHT be leaking seals  and decided to take a closer look at the slave, given how difficult it is to get at (Caution: understatement alert!!)

With the later frame with additional lower bracing  there is NO WAY to get that cylinder out without removing aforementioned subframe. At the same time as all this I attempted two different methods of greasing the front UJ. Yes, the bit I'd been dreading.

 

There's a joke in Norton Commando circles that the bike was built around the horn (behind gearbox, in front of rear mudguard). Well I have concluded the V11 assembly line in Mandello started with that front grease nipple!

1st attempt :- heat grease delivery tube on one of my 3!) grease guns and bend it. Result - one broken tube 

2nd attempt :- try from underneath with a flexible hose. This required taking a small notch out of the grease gun head to latch onto the zerk. Result - grease all coming out of the notch, none in the zerk 

Anyhoo, given the rear subframe has to come out for the clutch slave cylinder access, and that means the swing arm too, I could do the UJ (etc) greasing with all that out of the way...

 

More instalments later!

 

[docc]

All that corrosion around the slave could simply be from the bleeder. Or from some prior attempt to bleed it. Might consider cleaning it up and using Teflon tape on the bleeder.

After decades (literally now) of discussion over the front U-joint, best access looks to be from the front, coming across the U-joint guard through the shaft tunnel in the swingarm, and downward onto the Zerk (Zerk pointing upward, with the swingarm lowered) using an adjustable angle tip at 90º-ish . . .

Otherwise, "You know. Snake Farm " . . .

[wavey_davey1]

You might be right Docc about the bleed nipple on the clutch slave. I removed the rear subframe, which is a swing arm out job and checked over the slave cylinder. No leakage apparent and piston in immaculate condition. The thrust washer on the end of the clutch pushrod had tiny (and I mean tiny, no surface corrosion evident with a fingernail test) witness marks from the radial bearing it sits against - see pic. Presumably because it's been sat in that position for over a decade and the oil film broke down on the top half? Anyway, nothing to worry about. I flipped the hardened washer around so the clean side is against the bearing, changed the o ring that seals in the gearbox oil and replaced everything with A4 stainless fasteners (copper greased) after respraying the corroded paint with etch primer and the VHT case paint.

 

Looks a lot better and a good match for the rest of the cases.

 

THEN I decided to fit a remote bleeder setup (as Guzzi did with the Griso), what a pain that turned out to be! More later...

 

 

 

[wavey_davey1]

and here's the thrust bearing with a new o ring and washer, note slight witness marks;

 

 

 

[wavey_davey1]

Here's a pic of the remote bleeder I made up with some stainless hose and fittings. The actual bleeder is from these guys, they do a zinc plated version and stainless so I treated myself!

https://www.competitionsupplies.com/remote-bleed-fitting/remote-bleed-fitting-stainless-steel

However, although the clutch had been working fine before I touched it (going purely by lever feel), it proved impossible to bleed up with the remote setup, air getting in somewhere? I ended up fitting a banjo with a bleed nipple at the master cylinder end (I had one spare from when I rebuilt my Guzzi T3 linked brakes which were a nightmare to bleed afterwards!) and reterminating the hose fittings on the bleeder, in case I'd trapped some stainless wire from the hose cladding inside an olive or something?

In the end I was able to bleed it up ok with my vacuum bleeder and all the nipples ptfe taped to prevent air coming in. I am waiting to see if the clutch lever remains firm despite lack of any obvious leaks, before I refit the swing arm etc. Possibly in bleeding (and obviously pumping the clutch lever repeatedly) I've exposed an issue with the master cylinder which has presumably sat for years unused, but everything looks nice and dry? This has proved to be the most frustrating aspect of the recommissioning so far! 

[Lucky Phil]

The issue with vacuum bleeders is they can suck air around the bleeder screw threads and into the clear bleeder tube and give erroneous indications of air in the system. You dont get this issue with pressure bleeders. To combat this during bleeding just wipe a fillet of grease around the bleed nipple threads between the visible threads and the calliper housing where the bleed nipple drilling is to seal it from sucking air. Wipe it off when you're finished the bleed. 

The other air point on the V11 is the master cylinder connection which traps air due to the bar angle. Remove the master and tip it up and jiggle the lever and watch the air bubbles come into the reservoir. 

I've thought quite a lot about why clamping the brake on overnight improves the lever hardness and my theory is the constant pressure in the brake system dissolves any air bubbles back into suspension in the brake fluid where they have no or next to no compressibility issues. In other words dissolved air or small amounts of air effectively in suspension in the fluid has no compressibility effect where actual formed bubbles do. Anyone have thoughts or scientific info to back this up or shoot the theory down? 

I don't see why the brake secured on overnight technique wouldn't be worth trying on the clutch as well although you won't generate the same line pressure so it may not be as effective.

I don't really get the whole remote bleeder thing for the clutch. It just adds weight and complexity. Sure it's a bit of a fiddly job to bleed but you only need to do it every couple of years or so. Not worth the added weight and failure points for mine.

Edited November 11 by Lucky Phil

[wavey_davey1]

Last update tonight.

 

While waiting to see if the clutch hydraulics are going to play ball I have fitted the new throttle bodies I sourced off German eBay after corrosion saw off one of the original ones (see earlier posts).

The freshly serviced and tested injectors went in without apparent drama so before the inaugaral fire up I needed to set the TPS. I ordered some AMP superseal connectors I THOUGHT were the right ones, but of course they weren't. AMP make a few variants beyond just the number of pins apparently. Anyway, no worries, I made up a lead to clip the multimeter to using just the pins from the connectors, as in reality you only need to use this lead for a few minutes every year or two at the most?

The TPS that came with the "new" TBs looked to be in better condition so I went with that one, and after a bit of fiddling (as pretty much everyone on this forum is aware) I got the reading as near as dammit..

 

I had also performed a compression test on the starter motor and both cylinders were within a few % and healthy reading, albeit on a cold engine.

Tank back on (after being aired empty for a few weeks with cap open and pump and filter removed) and fresh fuel.

Ignition on, (after refitting the pump relay) and everything seems to be ok, except fuel leaking from one of the injectors, possibly due to the hose being kinked due to poor routing forcing the injector to not sit properly in it's seat. Anyway I was too impatient to remove tank etc, as the leak isn't bad and went for it!

 

Success! The motor fired after about a second of churning and sounds super healthy, no smoke, rattles or nasty noises. A real landmark in bringing the princess back from her slumber.

 

I've only run her up a handful of times as the clutch/swingarm/rear subframe episode has taken over, but she sounds sweet, even on standard pipes and collector.

Next steps after the clutch ok (hopefully) and refitting rear end are new tyres booked in for this week (pair of Pirelli Angel GT2 s). I just need to work out how to support the bike so i can take BOTH wheels to the tyre fitters rather than two 30 mile round trips.

 

I'm starting to get excited! 

[wavey_davey1]

Just now, wavey_davey1 said:

Last update tonight.

 

While waiting to see if the clutch hydraulics are going to play ball I have fitted the new throttle bodies I sourced off German eBay after corrosion saw off one of the original ones (see earlier posts).

The freshly serviced and tested injectors went in without apparent drama so before the inaugaral fire up I needed to set the TPS. I ordered some AMP superseal connectors I THOUGHT were the right ones, but of course they weren't. AMP make a few variants beyond just the number of pins apparently. Anyway, no worries, I made up a lead to clip the multimeter to using just the pins from the connectors, as in reality you only need to use this lead for a few minutes every year or two at the most?

The TPS that came with the "new" TBs looked to be in better condition so I went with that one, and after a bit of fiddling (as pretty much everyone on this forum is aware) I got the reading as near as dammit..

 

I had also performed a compression test on the starter motor and both cylinders were within a few % and healthy reading, albeit on a cold engine.

Tank back on (after being aired empty for a few weeks with cap open and pump and filter removed) and fresh fuel.

Ignition on, (after refitting the pump relay) and everything seems to be ok, except fuel leaking from one of the injectors, possibly due to the hose being kinked due to poor routing forcing the injector to not sit properly in it's seat. Anyway I was too impatient to remove tank etc, as the leak isn't bad and went for it!

 

Success! The motor fired after about a second of churning and sounds super healthy, no smoke, rattles or nasty noises. A real landmark in bringing the princess back from her slumber.

 

I've only run her up a handful of times as the clutch/swingarm/rear subframe episode has taken over, but she sounds sweet, even on standard pipes and collector.

Next steps after the clutch ok (hopefully) and refitting rear end are new tyres booked in for this week (pair of Pirelli Angel GT2 s). I just need to work out how to support the bike so i can take BOTH wheels to the tyre fitters rather than two 30 mile round trips.

 

I'm starting to get excited! 

 

[wavey_davey1]

42 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

The issue with vacuum bleeders is they can suck air around the bleeder screw threads and into the clear bleeder tube and give erroneous indications of air in the system. You dont get this issue with pressure bleeders. To combat this during bleeding just wipe a fillet of grease around the bleed nipple threads between the visible threads and the calliper housing where the bleed nipple drilling is to seal it from sucking air. Wipe it off when you're finished the bleed. 

The other air point on the V11 is the master cylinder connection which traps air due to the bar angle. Remove the master and tip it up and jiggle the lever and watch the air bubbles come into the reservoir. 

I've thought quite a lot about why clamping the brake on overnight improves the lever hardness and my theory is the constant pressure in the brake system dissolves any air bubbles back into suspension in the brake fluid where they have no or next to no compressibility issues. In other words dissolved air or small amounts of air effectively in suspension in the fluid has no compressibility effect where actual formed bubbles do. Anyone have thoughts or scientific info to back this up or shoot the theory down? 

I don't see why the brake secured on overnight technique wouldn't be worth trying on the clutch as well although you won't generate the same line pressure so it may not be as effective.

I don't really get the whole remote bleeder thing for the clutch. It just adds weight and complexity. Sure it's a bit of a fiddly job to bleed but you only need to do it every couple of years or so. Not worth the added weight and failure points for mine.

Good point about bar angle Phil. Years ago I had a Laverda RGS, one of the very first bikes with a hydraulic clutch actuation. Anyway, a previous owner had sheered off the slave cylinder bleed nipple, and that was a big deal as the slave cylinder was cast into the gearbox cover! It turned into a non issue however, as tilting the whole bike carefully against a wall away from the prop stand put the master cylinder at the highest point, then zip tying the lever overnight and it bled up every time! In fact you could get it 90-odd% bled by doing the lean against a wall and pumping the lever gently a few times.

Putting a bleed tube on the nipple on the master cylinder banjo I fitted and cracking it slightly effectively did the same thing as tilting the whole master cylinder I think, as that was what seemed to finally sort it (hopefully)?

 

I put ptfe table on the bleed nipples when using the vacuum setup, as I know what you mean about sucking air in around the nipple threads. This helps and I only use a small vacuum to try and minimise this, but I like the grease tip, thanks

I understand your viewpoint on the remote bleeder but it really is a pig to access with the later subframe. Maybe a solution looking for a problem but it weighs almost nothing and took 30 minutes to make up??

[docc]

Not bad for the TPS setting (within 3.5 mV of the 157 mV target should put the map indexing on the same "step".)

The TPS connector is not AMP. I found this out the hard way trying to source replacement seals after I swelled mine with DeOxit. I'll look for that intel and report back . . .

As for supporting a V11 to pull both wheels, no matter how you "support" it, use a "chain fall" or otherwise racthet strap to the joists above. This is critical method!

Congratulations on the first start-up! Well done, sir!

[wavey_davey1]

3 minutes ago, docc said:

Not bad for the TPS setting (within 3.5 mV of the 157 mV target should put the map indexing on the same "step".)

The TPS connector is not AMP. I found this out the hard way trying to source replacement seals after I swelled mine with DeOxit. I'll look for that intel and report back . . .

As for supporting a V11 to pull both wheels, no matter how you "support" it, use a "chain fall" or otherwise racthet strap to the joists above. This is critical method!

Congratulations on the first start-up! Well done, sir!

Thanks Docc, felt great! Yes good advice, I had the bike supported in a front wheel chock, ratchet strap off the rear frame loop to the rafters and a car jack with wood blocks under the sump (not really taking any weight) whilst doing the swing arm etc as the Becker stand obviously had to be removed. I'll do the same with the front wheel out (it's back on the Becker stand now with lower rear subframe back on) and also rig up a second ratchet strap off the bars or similar.

 

Makes sense that the connector isn't AMP I guess but the pins fitted nicely in the OEM connectors so jobs a good un as my dad said.

[audiomick]

Clutch bleeder extender: I put the original Guzzi part (from the Griso) in my 2002 Le Mans. That took me about 15 minutes, maybe a half an hour. Doesn't matter, nothing. Now, bleeding the clutch lookes like this:

comfortably standing upright, and able to operate the clutch lever and the spanners to open and close the bleed valve at the same time. I don't see any arguments against adding the part. The weight is, for a road bike, in my opinion absolutely insignificant.

[docc]

1 hour ago, wavey_davey1 said:

Makes sense that the connector isn't AMP I guess but the pins fitted nicely in the OEM connectors so jobs a good un as my dad said.

Our TPS connector is this Aptiv (Delphi):

https://www.eficonnection.com/home/product/delphi-3-way-gray-metri-pack-150-2-sealed-female-connector