Flexfuel conversion for E85, any experience/insight ?

[nickh]

Hi all,

nearly 20 years ago there was a thread on this forum about possibly converting a V11 to run on E85.

In some countries (France, Sweden, Australia, Brazil E100 ) there is a big price advantage for E85 fuel, and various companies offer kits for converting bikes. E.g
https://eflexfuel.com/us/moto-products
https://www.ecofuelbox.com/en/kits-e85-ethanol-motorcycles/e85-kit-for-bike-2-cylinder
https://www.greenspirits.at/intern/ebay/html/für webseite/greenspirits-E85-conversion-tuning_english.html

Has anyone had experience running Guzzis or comparable bikes on E85/E100 ?

Does anyone know how much it improves emissions of NOx, CO, soot, etc ?

Would using E85 with a flexfuel kit potentially keep older bikes road legal as emissions standards tighten ?

Nick

 

 

[guzzigary]

I ride 20 miles out of my way to find ethanol free fuel

[nickh]

Certainly you shouldn't put E85 in any engine that is not adapted for it.
I'm in Austria, and most of Europe has E5 unleaded, with E10 for more recent cars.

Even E10 requires an engine that is adapted for it.

[audiomick]

2 hours ago, nickh said:

Would using E85 with a flexfuel kit potentially keep older bikes road legal as emissions standards tighten ?

I doubt it. The emissions of the bike are what the CoC says they are. As long as a bike that was initially legally registered is not modified to the point that it no longer meets the requirements at the time of first registration, it should remain legal.

Does Austria have something like Bestandsschutz?*  I'm not actually sure if it is legally anchored in Germany, but I think it is. As long as that applies, the powers that be can't suddenly decide that a bike that was legal yesterday isn't legal today anymore. If and when such a situation should arise, one would have to find out how the relevant laws are phrased, and see if there is a way around it.

* For those who don't speak German, Bestandschutz is translated by my favourite online German-English dictionary as "right of continuance". That seems about right. The term conveys the concept that a vehicle that was legal when it was first registered can't suddenly be declared illegal because it doesn't meet modern emissions laws or whatever.

[guzzler]

I won't put it in the car let alone my bike.....

[Lucky Phil]

10 hours ago, nickh said:

Hi all,

nearly 20 years ago there was a thread on this forum about possibly converting a V11 to run on E85.

In some countries (France, Sweden, Australia, Brazil E100 ) there is a big price advantage for E85 fuel, and various companies offer kits for converting bikes. E.g
https://eflexfuel.com/us/moto-products
https://www.ecofuelbox.com/en/kits-e85-ethanol-motorcycles/e85-kit-for-bike-2-cylinder
https://www.greenspirits.at/intern/ebay/html/für webseite/greenspirits-E85-conversion-tuning_english.html

Has anyone had experience running Guzzis or comparable bikes on E85/E100 ?

Does anyone know how much it improves emissions of NOx, CO, soot, etc ?

Would using E85 with a flexfuel kit potentially keep older bikes road legal as emissions standards tighten ?

Nick

 

 

A couple of points. E85 is not readily available in Australia. I've never seen it at any petrol station and I live in almost the largest city in the country by population. Google tells me it's available at selected United outlets but I never use that outlet as they traditionally sell shite fuel so maybe they do but they are a small player outlet wise.

The other issue with E85 conversion is less MPG and the plastic fuel tanks on a V11 swell bad enough on E10 let alone E85. Also unless the engine is optimised for E85 then there's little to no performance benefit and if you know me then you know how concerned I am with the "climate emergency" and domestic motor vehicle pollution. 

The gains from E85 in performance terms are with the turbo engines. Running E85 has significant power gains due to being able to turn the boost up safely with a "tune". Unless you pull the engine down and bump the comp to utilise the added nock resistance then there's not much to gain on a v11 engine. A little better cooling maybe but as I said worse fuel economy which isn't particularly attractive for most.   

Like Guzzler I go out of my way to avoid ethanol fuels. If you are environmentally concerned about the future of ICE engines the way forward is synthetic fuel. Carbon neutral and zero mechanical or tuning requirements. 4 times the cost at present but this will come down as mass production increases. Porsche has a facility producing it now in Chile and MotoGP will run it exclusively in a year or two.  

Phil 

Edited August 24 by Lucky Phil

[guzzler]

Yep,I agree mate.

I reckon the synthetic fuel Porsche is working on is the go for the future as well and keep an ear out to catch up with how they're going with it! It has to be the way forward with the ability to utilize the existing infrastructure with minimal if any change to that and our vehicles too no doubt.

Electric as much as the green contingent blather on about it is no alternative especially here in Oz and Hydrogen although better than electric would mean a big change in infrastructure to accommodate unless I'm mistaken.   

Oh well I'm off to cut some wood now so I can burn it and play my part in the emergency.....

Cheers   

[nickh]

11 hours ago, audiomick said:

I doubt it. The emissions of the bike are what the CoC says they are. As long as a bike that was initially legally registered is not modified to the point that it no longer meets the requirements at the time of first registration, it should remain legal.

Does Austria have something like Bestandsschutz?*  I'm not actually sure if it is legally anchored in Germany, but I think it is. As long as that applies, the powers that be can't suddenly decide that a bike that was legal yesterday isn't legal today anymore. If and when such a situation should arise, one would have to find out how the relevant laws are phrased, and see if there is a way around it.

* For those who don't speak German, Bestandschutz is translated by my favourite online German-English dictionary as "right of continuance". That seems about right. The term conveys the concept that a vehicle that was legal when it was first registered can't suddenly be declared illegal because it doesn't meet modern emissions laws or whatever.

Bestandschutz / "right of continuance" / "grandfather clause"  is not a constitutional protection, just a common practice in writing regulations. For example we have Low Emission Zones (LEZ) and Zero Emission Zones (ZEZ) and changes to which fuels are registered for sale. If in a few years only E10 and higher are available then some adaptation of a V11 would be necessary.

Also most countries have annual roadworthy tests, which include the vehicles current emissions. The V11 is a Euro 2 bike, but if E85 produced lower temperature combustion,  but also more complete (due to ethanol being partially oxidized already), then perhaps it could meet a higher emission standard and be permitted in LEZ zones in future. 

[nickh]

E-fuels certainly would be ideal if/when they are available. While ICE engines can be adapted to run on any thing that burns, the details are not so simple. Most biofuels are alcohols or esters, hence hygroscopic with all the complications that brings. 

E-fuels at 4x normal gas price is cheaper than I have seen, but more than I could afford.  If they were <2EUR/Litre  and permanently available, that would allow me to keep a V11 as a weekend vehicle.

Still I'd be keen to hear from anyone in Sweden, France, Brazil or elsewhere who has experience with bikes adapted for flexfuel.  It is always best to get firsthand reports if possible.

Thanks all.

 

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, nickh said:

E-fuels certainly would be ideal if/when they are available. While ICE engines can be adapted to run on any thing that burns, the details are not so simple. Most biofuels are alcohols or esters, hence hygroscopic with all the complications that brings. 

E-fuels at 4x normal gas price is cheaper than I have seen, but more than I could afford.  If they were <2EUR/Litre  and permanently available, that would allow me to keep a V11 as a weekend vehicle.

Still I'd be keen to hear from anyone in Sweden, France, Brazil or elsewhere who has experience with bikes adapted for flexfuel.  It is always best to get firsthand reports if possible.

Thanks all.

 

Good luck with that. In years to come the evening news won't be about busting some suburban meth lab but busting me in some suburban petrol lab.

Phil

[nickh]

Ah Phil, but drugs will be so much more fun when you burn them in a V11 

[GuzziMoto]

I am not sure about converting a V11 Sport to run on E85, but unlike some others here I get the reasons you would want to. Even in a normally aspirated engine it can make more power and fewer emissions. But one major fear would be the plastic fuel tank of the V11 Sport seems to have issues with ethanol in the gasoline causing it to swell. Not sure it is possible, but the ideal way to go seems like it would be a dual fuel setup with a fuel sensor. That way you could run it on E85 or regular gasoline. I am not sure I would want to be pigeon-holed to only be able to run E85. It is just not available everywhere around here.

There is an interesting test done where some people ran a Chevy LS V8 on different fuels. On each fuel they messed with ignition timing and fueling to find best power. First they ran 87 octane E10 gasoline. The engine made about 500 hp, and wanted 29 degrees of timing advance. They then ran the same engine on 91 E10, 110 race gas, and 116 race gas. On all the different fuels the engine made almost exactly the same power, around 500 hp, with the same curve. It also wanted the same 29 degrees of timing, regardless of the octane of the fuel. Then they ran the engine on E85. The engine made noticeably more power through the entire curve, but funnily enough the motor wanted the same 29 degrees of timing. I really enjoyed the test, it disproved a few common engine myths. Sure, a boosted engine can benefit more from E85 then a normally aspirated engine. But most engines can make more power on E85 then they can make on gasoline. Fuel mileage will be worse, noticeably worse, but power will be better. And emissions should be less.

The subject has been brought up a few times in the past. Not sure if any of it ever went anywhere. 

 

[Lucky Phil]

I saw that test and that particular engine an old school design 2 valve pushrod made a whole 1.6% more average power. An engine that needs all the help it can get with regards to combustion chamber surface area V heat. Virtually all down to E85's slightly better cooling benefit. And that's squeezing the lemon to eek out every ounce of extra benefit with AFR and ignition. Overall the E85 in an old design engine with pretty low comp is a backward step when you consider the afore mentioned much worse fuel economy, hydroscopic nature which is hard on the whole fuel system and murder on the fuel tank. So not worth it on a V11 specifically and not anything else I can think of in reality unless you're boosted or willing to bump the comp to take advantage of the extra knock resistance. At the end of the day we all know pretty much that these fuels were and are more about propping up US corn growing industry than anything else. You'd make far more gains with a cheap and simple water meth injection kit and bypass all the Ethanol issues. 

Phil