V11 Ballabio 2004 - Weird electrical problem after storing bike 1 year

[po18guy]

21 minutes ago, Tomchri said:

Startus interruptus, yes a better wire and an extra good relay is the cure. I used a 70amp relay, yes overkill, but.   It's all here on the forum.

Cheers Tom.

Please remind me: on the later ('04 etc.) which relay is start? 

[Tomchri]

1.

Cheers Tom.

[po18guy]

5 minutes ago, Tomchri said:

1.

Cheers Tom.

Relay 1 and YOU are #1!

[Steve Swan]

20 hours ago, vinguzzi said:

Update of weirdness:

Went to the bike with the good battery. Went ahead with testing the starter: removed the plastic cover over the starter to access the connectors, to run a wire from the spade connector on the solenoid to battery Positive.

Access to the connectors was still limited, but I noticed a spade connector not fully engaged on the solenoid(?). It is a thin wire and appeared brown. Do you guys know if this is earth? It seems incredible thin.. A picture is attached. 

I seated the wire well and thought lets see…: hooked up the battery and… it started right away. Had been a full year, but really only 2 seconds of cranking. More amazing was that the head light (that used to stay on after switching of ignition) turned off normal. Also the neutral light functioned normal again.

Went for a drive and all was fine. One time it did not start (it primed, clutch switch reacted and neutral light worked), nothing. After 1 minutes it started right up again.

So… depending on what that wire is: could this cause the headlight staying on issue, neutral light not illuminating and non cranking  - in your opinion?

Cheers from a still somewhat amazed but happy guzzi rider

Vins

Bravissimo!!!  Congratulations!  I've enjoyed following your sleuthing that's got you back on the road! and have been reading other threads also.  My '02 is finally enroute via Haulbikes.com, in OK City, due to arrive this coming Monday!

[po18guy]

13 hours ago, vinguzzi said:

Update of weirdness:

Went to the bike with the good battery. Went ahead with testing the starter: removed the plastic cover over the starter to access the connectors, to run a wire from the spade connector on the solenoid to battery Positive.

Access to the connectors was still limited, but I noticed a spade connector not fully engaged on the solenoid(?). It is a thin wire and appeared brown. Do you guys know if this is earth? It seems incredible thin.. A picture is attached. 

I seated the wire well and thought lets see…: hooked up the battery and… it started right away. Had been a full year, but really only 2 seconds of cranking. More amazing was that the head light (that used to stay on after switching of ignition) turned off normal. Also the neutral light functioned normal again.

Went for a drive and all was fine. One time it did not start (it primed, clutch switch reacted and neutral light worked), nothing. After 1 minutes it started right up again.

So… depending on what that wire is: could this cause the headlight staying on issue, neutral light not illuminating and non cranking  - in your opinion?

Cheers from a still somewhat amazed but happy guzzi rider

Vins

That connection looked fine on my '04. Nevertheless, I cleaned both, applied Caig DeoxIt and gave the female terminal a bit of a squeeze. I don;t think it matters, but the stud which secures the sidestand switch and return spring was loose. With my trusty M11 spanner, it is now snug.

[Lucky Phil]

20 hours ago, vinguzzi said:

Update of weirdness:

Went to the bike with the good battery. Went ahead with testing the starter: removed the plastic cover over the starter to access the connectors, to run a wire from the spade connector on the solenoid to battery Positive.

Access to the connectors was still limited, but I noticed a spade connector not fully engaged on the solenoid(?). It is a thin wire and appeared brown. Do you guys know if this is earth? It seems incredible thin.. A picture is attached. 

I seated the wire well and thought lets see…: hooked up the battery and… it started right away. Had been a full year, but really only 2 seconds of cranking. More amazing was that the head light (that used to stay on after switching of ignition) turned off normal. Also the neutral light functioned normal again.

Went for a drive and all was fine. One time it did not start (it primed, clutch switch reacted and neutral light worked), nothing. After 1 minutes it started right up again.

So… depending on what that wire is: could this cause the headlight staying on issue, neutral light not illuminating and non cranking  - in your opinion?

Cheers from a still somewhat amazed but happy guzzi rider

Vins

That wire is only the solenoid wire it doesn't carry starter current so the size is fine.

Phil

[audiomick]

As far as I can see, no-one has answered the questions explicitly yet, so I'll give it a go, even if it's only for posterity

 

On 9/4/2024 at 7:08 PM, vinguzzi said:

So… depending on what that wire is

Unless I am very, very mistaken, that is the wire coming from the starter relay that supplies the voltage that activates the starter solenoid.

On 9/4/2024 at 7:08 PM, vinguzzi said:

.... could this cause the headlight staying on issue (and) neutral light not illuminating

Theortically, it shouldn't, but:

The headlight is held on by the other state of the starter relay, i.e. the state it falls back to when the starter button is not being pressed. So there is a connection, somehow.

The neutral light is not directly involved in the circuit, but I believe it might be indirectly involved via earth contact in the dashboard.

Put those two together, and some of the really weird behavior of lights I have observed on older cars full of bad contacts, and I'd say "you never know" to both of those.

 

On 9/4/2024 at 7:08 PM, vinguzzi said:

(could this cause) non cranking 

Definitely. See the first point. That wire circled in the photo actives the starter solenoid, which causes the starter to crank over. If that wire has a bad contact, and it sounded like it had marginal or perhaps no contact, then the starter simply wont work.

 

The question you haven't asked is "why did it only show up after a year of standing around?"

If you are really sure that you didn't accidently dislodge that wire during the year's standing around, it probably just mucked up through corrosion. That can easily happen between metal surfaces that are close together. You get a bit of moisture in there, and it does it's thing. Or just dust. Or something else.

I once had a bad connection in a studio mixing desk that was caused by a very small spider building a web inside a large multi-pin connector. Seriously, I kid you not.

Edited September 5 by audiomick

[po18guy]

Electrolysis. It seems that half the wire connections maintain metal-metal contact via constant engine and road vibration. At the micro level, this would cause the fretting of tiny amounts of oxidation. But the longer it sits and the closer to water/humidity, the process accelerates. But, all of the safety switches are a marvel to behold. They insist on providing complete safety, often when one desires to be dangerous.

[vinguzzi]

Thank you all for sharing wisdom and solutions. Really appreciate it. 

When there is a little bit more time, I'll anyway closely inspect all starter wiring, open and clean the ignition switch and replace the starter Relais with a turbo version. 

For now I wish all blessed riding weather, in the Netherlands it is still dry as can be 😊

 

[po18guy]

Having weathered a non-start issue an hour away from home, I did a few things. First was to check, clean and DeoxIt the wire at the solenoid. Pulled the  number 1 relay and popped the cover off. Tiny little thing for high current. With magnification, I could see corrosion on the contacts. So, a little dexterity (a rare moment) and some 800, then 1200 then 2000 wet-or-dry, we got them spruced up. Then a blow dry, a spritz of contact cleaner and then DeoxIt on the prongs and in the receptacle. I used pipe cleaners dipped in DeoxIt to clean them.

Slipped it all back in and the starter activated immediately, without pondering, as it often does. If the relay covers were transparent, we would see the arcing. Also tried one of my stash of Omron double-throwdown Diesel caliber relays.  Worked at least as well and probably better. With the original relay (part of a "decent tune-up"?) back among the living, I found a "relay-sized" tire patch kit plastic box in my bicycles spares. It seems that the Taiwanese bicyclists also had Omron relays in mind, as it is a perfect fit and reasonably water-tight. I applied some WD-40 dry lube to the contacts to slow corrosion. Back it goes into the monkey's paw.

It requires almost micro-photography to capture the daintiness of the relay internals. And Tyco thoughtfully tucked the contact points into their own romantic alcove, just to avoid any boredom. What's done is done and a spare tagging along for those "special occasions."

Edited September 10 by po18guy

[audiomick]

Nitpicking...

14 hours ago, po18guy said:

It requires almost micro-photography to capture the daintiness of the relay internals.

Macro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_photography

 

Sorry....

 

PS: I've got a couple of fairly good Macro lenses for my old Pentax Spotmatic camera bodies, and they are really good fun.

Edited Tuesday at 11:45 PM by audiomick

[docc]

1 minute ago, audiomick said:

Nitpicking...

Macro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_photography

 

Sorry....

Macrophotography of micro relays.  

[po18guy]

OK, electron microscope images. The Tyco relays are really easy to pull down and not THAT bad to clean up the points. A point file will not fit, as it must be about 1/3 the width and about 1/2 the thickness. A 4-5mm wide bit of wet-or-dry will slip in, but I could not get it between the points doubled, so. one at a time.  

[docc]

I have seen a lot of relay failures on V11 over all this time. TYCO is over-represented in the events.

Jus' sayin' . . . 

[po18guy]

20 minutes ago, audiomick said:

Nitpicking...

Macro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_photography

 

Sorry....

 

PS: I've got a couple of fairly good Macro lenses for my old Pentax Spotmatic camera bodies, and they are really good fun.

A counter-intuitive term. In the field of economics. macro economics is big picture, long haul type stuff, whereas micro is, well...micro. Updated after a visit to the local nanoscience lab.