Espresso

[Pressureangle]

23 hours ago, Gmc28 said:

Oh my, did we really get into an espresso thread with an Australian on V11lemans.com?  It’s about damn time!

phil clearly likes finer and/or vintage things (he has a V11!), and he’s Australian, a land full of wonderfully finicky espresso drinkers, so it’s probably safe to say he has no problem with model T’s, but that if you really love to drink espresso, then the model T is going to produce a whole different product than a what a proper modern machine & grinder will do.  Less-so for the espresso machine, which is an easier target to hit than a good grinder.  (Almost) no matter how skilled you are, pulling a perfect shot using a “model T” grinder is damn near impossible, and at the least requires a lot of work, and some luck.  

of course it all depends on what you consider the perfect shot, the question which overwhelmingly colors the whole conversation.  
 

I’ve owned and used wonderful vintage espresso machines, which looked the part, and with considerable effort could produce a fantastic shot, but never without the right (modern, bloody expensive) grinder.  The temp control, plus pressure & flow control of Phil’s new machine is very difficult or impossible to replicate on an old machine.

if you like drip, or have taste for old-world coffee, then no big deal….. life is much easier for you!

for those who like both old world simplicity and the benefits of modern geek-driven (beautiful) madness, are not worried about budget, the Weber HG-2 is spot-on.  And it's not made from wood, for those inclined that way :->

No room in my kitchen for that  (lovely) monstrosity, plus for espresso I prefer a flat burr.  For the flat burr fans, spend double the already large price and get the EG-1, a fantastic unit, that I’ve only used at a friends house.  Fantastic, and consistent.   Just imagine, for only $4000 you can get a nice grinder for your counter that your friends will think is a NASA telescope!  
 

sad that in Italy, where I learned to love espresso so many years ago (as an eye opener compared the Folgers at home back then), where even the little hole-in-wall places did decent espresso, is now largely overrun with the disgusting automatic machines.  Undrinkable, except for medicinal purposes…

So between the grinder and personal espresso machine, I'm $10,000 in? 

That's insanity. 

I suppose if my income had 2 more zeros, I'd probably go insane. 

And hire a live-in Italian baristina to operate it for me. 

[audiomick]

23 hours ago, Gmc28 said:

... an espresso thread with an Australian.

Two Australians.

For those not in the know, the coffee culture in Melbourne has got to be one of the most refined in the world, I reckon. It started around the early '80s, I think, and has been developing and refining itself ever since. Driven by the large Italian immigrant population, but no doubt also influenced by the equally large Greek community.

Anyway, to put it into perspective...

My experience over the last couple of visits "back home" is that if you have really bad luck, and make a really bad choice of cafe in Melbourne, you might get served with a coffee that is only just better than mediocre.

In comparision, here in Germany, if you get really lucky, on a good day, in a cafe that is an inside tip from someone, and the person making the coffee is having a good day, you might get a coffee that is nearly good.

The term "Flat white" is starting to turn up here. Probably introduced by people who where on holidays in Australia, and saw it there. Every time I see it on a menu, I give it a go. Mostly it turns out to be a half a cup of foam, made with UHT skimmed milk, with about a thimble full of something liquid underneath it that may have seen a coffe bean at a distance.

I love my Bialettis.

PS: as far as the grinder goes, I was informed that the grind for a Bialetti should not be so fine, so the old hand grinder is ok. Seems to work well, at least.

Edited Saturday at 09:26 PM by audiomick

[Pressureangle]

20 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

 'The Amish only manage to survive because they pretty much isolate themselves from the rest of society...'

The Amish survive because they are great businesspeople, with sharp pencils and unblemished ethic, and command a high price for their high quality coupled with a refusal to spend money on appearances. And, a hidden value is that they often have things you just can't get elsewhere.
In the U.S., OSHA allows forklifts and other heavy equipment to be blocked up *only* with certified, purpose-built metal jackstands, or Red or White Oak. So if I don't want to spend a grand on jackstands, or I need some Oak blocks before the weekend, I run off to the Amish sawmill and pick up a few out of the $10 'ends' bin. They don't carry oak blocks at home depot.

'I have family members that would rather drink instant coffee than a espresso machine made coffee even if it's for free or I'm paying. Thats how mad some people are these days.'   

Yes, sadly, no matter how simple or complex the espresso, it's completely lost on most people. Crazy.

Phil

Eric

 

[activpop]

14 minutes ago, Pressureangle said:

That's insanity. 

 

I think so...but those Webers are just beautiful, especially the eg1. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here, and idk if my palate is that refined to taste the differences between flat burr and conical. I am going to search out an espresso bar that knows their stuff and has the equipment to see how it compares to my cup of mud. 

[audiomick]

I know the thread is about espresso, actually, and I've been writing about coffee with milk in it. The espresso it still the point. If that's not good, the flat white wont be either.

So anyway, these are, in my humble opinion, the fundamental requirements around which a good breakfast can be constructed.

[Pressureangle]

23 minutes ago, activpop said:

I think so...but those Webers are just beautiful, especially the eg1. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here, and idk if my palate is that refined to taste the differences between flat burr and conical. I am going to search out an espresso bar that knows their stuff and has the equipment to see how it compares to my cup of mud. 

I am as appreciative of perfected high technology, over-engineering, as I am of simplicity. These things are beautiful and ridiculous. I would love to have them, but hardly anyone else would see them and I'm certain that having that Italian beauty make me a moka Cuban would suffice.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, audiomick said:

Two Australians.

For those not in the know, the coffee culture in Melbourne has got to be one of the most refined in the world, I reckon. It started around the early '80s, I think, and has been developing and refining itself ever since. Driven by the large Italian immigrant population, but no doubt also influenced by the equally large Greek community.

Anyway, to put it into perspective...

My experience over the last couple of visits "back home" is that if you have really bad luck, and make a really bad choice of cafe in Melbourne, you might get served with a coffee that is only just better than mediocre.

In comparision, here in Germany, if you get really lucky, on a good day, in a cafe that is an inside tip from someone, and the person making the coffee is having a good day, you might get a coffee that is nearly good.

The term "Flat white" is starting to turn up here. Probably introduced by people who where on holidays in Australia, and saw it there. Every time I see it on a menu, I give it a go. Mostly it turns out to be a half a cup of foam, made with UHT skimmed milk, with about a thimble full of something liquid underneath it that may have seen a coffe bean at a distance.

I love my Bialettis.

PS: as far as the grinder goes, I was informed that the grind for a Bialetti should not be so fine, so the old hand grinder is ok. Seems to work well, at least.

This is my new grinder a Gaggia MDF 55. It's a decent grinder apparently for the lower middle price point. I was going to keep using my older machines but I never use my FF points and there was an offer on it so I bought it on FF points otherwise I probably would have researched the crap out of it and ended up spending double. I mean I did research it of course and it came up as lets say "pretty decent" even after the testing guy got the results from the particle analyser he has and the real coffee nutters buy and use for getting the grinds right. When it gets to the particle analyser stage I'm out. I love a good shot of coffee but I already have a few obsessions and I don't need anymore. Same as home roasting, interesting but too far down the rabbit hole for me. Neither of these things come on line until Christmas day as they are our presents to each other.

I know he's a bit annoying to listen to but who isn't on YouTube and the info is decent.

 

[audiomick]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

... I already have a few obsessions and I don't need anymore.

Yeah, me too mate.

I had an inkling that coffee nerds exist, and that bloke it the proof in the pudding. And I'm sure he is definitely not on the payroll at Gaggia.

The grinder looks really good. Over 60 dB is still pretty loud, actually (and we wont get into the measurement method or whether his meter is calibrated or anything like that), but he did mention the pertinent point: it allegedly doesn't sound annoying.

Have fun with it, Phil.

Edited Sunday at 12:06 AM by audiomick

[docc]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

When it gets to the particle analyser stage I'm out.

This reminds me of watching my young son, The Chemist , set up a coffee making station. It looked like (actually was) a lab table: volumetric flask for the exactly correct water volume, calibrated scale to weigh the selectively roasted beans for the precise ratio of coffee to water volume (coffee stoichiometry!), a bur (not blade!) grinder set to a specified "grind"/ surface area , and dial thermometers and a digital timer to assure the most-est/correct-est extraction time and temperature.

Fun observation is that the extraction temperature (apparently) must be in Celsius degrees (196ºC) while the ideal point for consumption is divined in degrees Fahrenheit (145ºF, a.k.a. "hot coffee").  

I must admit, the boy can brew a mighty good cuppa.

Did I say , already?

 

[audiomick]

And what doesn't get mentioned in all of this is your water supply. Perhaps a little more important for a good cup of tea, but also for good coffee. If the water is not good (too hard, too much chlorine, whatever...) the product wont be good.

 

I remember a job I did in the first couple of years in Germany. I'm talking about tea here, but the point applies. The job was here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/240059372#map=16/46.87158/11.02950

altitude just over 1900 metres. So we are talking about "pure mountain water". Up to that point I had been a little frustrated with my attempts to make a good cup of tea in Munich, and then the caterer there served a cup of tea that was absolutely fantastic. I'm sure that a commercial caterer wasn't making any great effort in the choice of tea, or the precise preparation. It was just the water.

The same applies to coffee. If your water isn't good, you can try what you want, it wont be really good.

[Lucky Phil]

35 minutes ago, audiomick said:

And what doesn't get mentioned in all of this is your water supply. Perhaps a little more important for a good cup of tea, but also for good coffee. If the water is not good (too hard, too much chlorine, whatever...) the product wont be good.

 

I remember a job I did in the first couple of years in Germany. I'm talking about tea here, but the point applies. The job was here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/240059372#map=16/46.87158/11.02950

altitude just over 1900 metres. So we are talking about "pure mountain water". Up to that point I had been a little frustrated with my attempts to make a good cup of tea in Munich, and then the caterer there served a cup of tea that was absolutely fantastic. I'm sure that a commercial caterer wasn't making any great effort in the choice of tea, or the precise preparation. It was just the water.

The same applies to coffee. If your water isn't good, you can try what you want, it wont be really good.

True. The serious people plumb in the machine and have filters and other things to mitigate the water chemical purity if for no other reason than to help with reduced scaling in the machine. I was actually wondering if using store bought demineralised water might be advantageous.

Phil    

[docc]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

True. The serious people plumb in the machine and have filters and other things to mitigate the water chemical purity if for no other reason than to help with reduced scaling in the machine. I was actually wondering if using store bought demineralised water might be advantageous.

Phil    

Or the "ideal" spring/mineral water. A neighbor, who learned his wine making craft from his German (US immigrant) grandfather, was determined to use only natural (mineralized) spring water from a local source.

The natural minerals are interactive with the processes while distilled water is more inert.

Yes, they might scale, but the flavor can be enhanced.

[Gmc28]

20 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

So between the grinder and personal espresso machine, I'm $10,000 in? 

That's insanity. 

I suppose if my income had 2 more zeros, I'd probably go insane. 

And hire a live-in Italian baristina to operate it for me. 

well, “great” espresso machines can cost several thousand dollars, but you can spend a lot loss on the machine and be fine, so i wouldn’t say $10k is an entry price to the boojie espresso world… a person could spend a few grand total and do just fine.  although that’s even a chunk compared to what most are used to :->

 for probably $7k (USD) a guy could have a true “cadillac” setup, with the grinder being the larger part of that.  Either way, it’s way too much money, unless you choose to make it your “thing”.  Sadly, i have.  but this group knows how possible it is to justify buying stuff we want….

 

20 hours ago, audiomick said:

Two Australians.

For those not in the know, the coffee culture in Melbourne has got to be one of the most refined in the world, I reckon. It started around the early '80s, I think, and has been developing and refining itself ever since. Driven by the large Italian immigrant population, but no doubt also influenced by the equally large Greek community.

Anyway, to put it into perspective...

My experience over the last couple of visits "back home" is that if you have really bad luck, and make a really bad choice of cafe in Melbourne, you might get served with a coffee that is only just better than mediocre.

In comparision, here in Germany, if you get really lucky, on a good day, in a cafe that is an inside tip from someone, and the person making the coffee is having a good day, you might get a coffee that is nearly good.

The term "Flat white" is starting to turn up here. Probably introduced by people who where on holidays in Australia, and saw it there. Every time I see it on a menu, I give it a go. Mostly it turns out to be a half a cup of foam, made with UHT skimmed milk, with about a thimble full of something liquid underneath it that may have seen a coffe bean at a distance.

I love my Bialettis.

PS: as far as the grinder goes, I was informed that the grind for a Bialetti should not be so fine, so the old hand grinder is ok. Seems to work well, at least.

agreed on all.  and tip-of-hat to the additional Aussies on thread!  i agree that as a group, they’ve collectively raised the bar well over where the italians placed it a long, long time ago. 

Flat whites came to US via Starbucks some years ago, and they were a fun twist, though as you say they usually get butchered by the barista’s, and starbucks over-roasted beans make all their stuff just in the “drinkable, but not good” category.. Unless you want a milkshake. 

But yes, you do NOT want a super spendy burr grinder for the bialetti, in my humble opinion. That kind of coffee benefits from more fines, like from a conical burr grinder, or most other ones, including hand grinders..  The cost hurdle for non-espresso drinkers is far lower, so a budgetary blessing if you don’t prefer espresso. 

 

20 hours ago, activpop said:

I think so...but those Webers are just beautiful, especially the eg1. I'm sure the law of diminishing returns applies here, and idk if my palate is that refined to taste the differences between flat burr and conical. I am going to search out an espresso bar that knows their stuff and has the equipment to see how it compares to my cup of mud. 

Portland has some great ones!  but they move around, as the barista is a key part of the process. lots of places dropping huge amounts of cash into super expensive machines, like the Slayer with  all its wild functionality and crazy price tag, but then some yahoo that runs it like he’s working an automated starbucks push-button machine.  hurts to watch.  

Coava used to a real nice job, and Public Domain downtown was great but i think Covid killed it.  i’ve heard Cathedral and Futura do nice work too.  

We used to say if the barista didnt have multiple piercings, tattoos, and wasn’t properly annoyed when you asked them for a drink, then you were at the wrong coffee bar.  So many great stories of out-of-town visiting friends who were shocked at how arrogant the good baristas could be.  i loved it… sort of a “soup nazi” thing.  unfortunately, most of them are getting nicer now, so i can’t be as entertained by the arrogance!

 

18 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

This is my new grinder a Gaggia MDF 55. It's a decent grinder apparently for the lower middle price point. I was going to keep using my older machines but I never use my FF points and there was an offer on it so I bought it on FF points otherwise I probably would have researched the crap out of it and ended up spending double. I mean I did research it of course and it came up as lets say "pretty decent" even after the testing guy got the results from the particle analyser he has and the real coffee nutters buy and use for getting the grinds right. When it gets to the particle analyser stage I'm out. I love a good shot of coffee but I already have a few obsessions and I don't need anymore. Same as home roasting, interesting but too far down the rabbit hole for me. Neither of these things come on line until Christmas day as they are our presents to each other.

I know he's a bit annoying to listen to but who isn't on YouTube and the info is decent.

 

great looking grinder!  looks like the eureka mignon series, based on form factor and burr size, and I have a few friends with those and they’re real happy. 

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, Gmc28 said:

well, “great” espresso machines can cost several thousand dollars, but you can spend a lot loss on the machine and be fine, so i wouldn’t say $10k is an entry price to the boojie espresso world… a person could spend a few grand total and do just fine.  although that’s even a chunk compared to what most are used to :->

 for probably $7k (USD) a guy could have a true “cadillac” setup, with the grinder being the larger part of that.  Either way, it’s way too much money, unless you choose to make it your “thing”.  Sadly, i have.  but this group knows how possible it is to justify buying stuff we want….

 

agreed on all.  and tip-of-hat to the additional Aussies on thread!  i agree that as a group, they’ve collectively raised the bar well over where the italians placed it a long, long time ago. 

Flat whites came to US via Starbucks some years ago, and they were a fun twist, though as you say they usually get butchered by the barista’s, and starbucks over-roasted beans make all their stuff just in the “drinkable, but not good” category.. Unless you want a milkshake. 

But yes, you do NOT want a super spendy burr grinder for the bialetti, in my humble opinion. That kind of coffee benefits from more fines, like from a conical burr grinder, or most other ones, including hand grinders..  The cost hurdle for non-espresso drinkers is far lower, so a budgetary blessing if you don’t prefer espresso. 

 

Portland has some great ones!  but they move around, as the barista is a key part of the process. lots of places dropping huge amounts of cash into super expensive machines, like the Slayer with  all its wild functionality and crazy price tag, but then some yahoo that runs it like he’s working an automated starbucks push-button machine.  hurts to watch.  

Coava used to a real nice job, and Public Domain downtown was great but i think Covid killed it.  i’ve heard Cathedral and Futura do nice work too.  

We used to say if the barista didnt have multiple piercings, tattoos, and wasn’t properly annoyed when you asked them for a drink, then you were at the wrong coffee bar.  So many great stories of out-of-town visiting friends who were shocked at how arrogant the good baristas could be.  i loved it… sort of a “soup nazi” thing.  unfortunately, most of them are getting nicer now, so i can’t be as entertained by the arrogance!

 

great looking grinder!  looks like the eureka mignon series, based on form factor and burr size, and I have a few friends with those and they’re real happy. 

It is apparently with some refinements.

Phil

[Gmc28]

On 11/23/2024 at 5:02 PM, Lucky Phil said:

True. The serious people plumb in the machine and have filters and other things to mitigate the water chemical purity if for no other reason than to help with reduced scaling in the machine. I was actually wondering if using store bought demineralised water might be advantageous.

Phil    

the water quality rabbit hole gives me a headache.  very real, but man it gets complicated.   you do of course want good or great quality water, but exactly what that means can get convoluted pretty quick, and the espresso snob community gets way, way into that (another "motor oil" type discussion).  certainly a level of diminishing returns there as a good solution is pursued, but where the sweet spot is between  "its not perfect" and "its good enough", can be hard to find.

My well water comes out hard and with lots of "stuff" (ppm) in it.  it's then softened, and comes out slightly acidic and low ppm.  It then goes through what most consider a good quality in-line filter, just for the espresso machine (plumbed in), and it comes out with a higher ph and higher ppm.  it actually ends up about where it should be on ph and ppm, but how I don't yet understand.  All stuff I never wanted to know...