Shutting off at speed after 20 miles

[OuijiVeck]

Experienced total shutoff while running fine while touring the Addirondacks in Aug. After 2 or three times I bypassed the kick stand switch and everything was fine for the next 1000 mi.

Now getting same exact symptoms.  Runs 20 mi. Shuts completely off. Restarts after a few minute then dies aftter another 10-20 mi. Roadside splice and twist looks fine but did it again anyway. Checking voltage from battery to offending wires I'm getting 7.5v. My first instinct was just ground those out directly to the frame BUT maybe they get some unintuitive curveball voltage thru the ECU $$$ so I'm holding off. Seem those kick stand wires should be 12+ v. But my stupidity of late has been impressing me. Relays have been switched. Could the FP itself be poorly grounded? 

2nd suspect is electric Fuel petcock. What's a good test method? 

TIA

[p6x]

17 minutes ago, OuijiVeck said:

Experienced total shutoff while running fine while touring the Addirondacks in Aug. After 2 or three times I bypassed the kick stand switch and everything was fine for the next 1000 mi.

It sounds strange, unless you have a loose connection, the switch is either close or open.

Couold it be one of these pesky relays with intermitent failure?

[motortouring]

Would you say it is a coincident that it is after 20 Miles? Or is 20 mi. 20 minutes? I could imagine that time relates to heating up, the Guzzi engine needs about 20 minutes to be nicely heated up (I would estimate something like this). It could be that for example the vent of the fuel tank is heated up and squeezed somewhere. But same for other failures of course.

[LowRyter]

Do you hear the fuel pump prime when you try to restart?

I'd suspect a relay getting hot since it's 20 minutes.  One trick, move and reset the relays when restarting. 

[gstallons]

Do not ground either one of those wires.  Doing so will blow a fuse to say the least. If you don't know , don't do it ! 

Is your sidestand switch still "modified" ? Y assume you are doing this near the oill cooler ? If so undo the jumper. Are you POSITIVE you are reading 7.5v on this (orange) wire ? This  power comes from the ign. switch. The light blue wire goes to  Relay 3 then also powers Relay 2 to turn on the headlight. Check V at F4 and see if you have 12v. there. If those #s are 7v and 12v , the problem is in the switch or at a connector . 

Let me know what you find.

 

[GuzziMoto]

An issue like that is probably best figured out by getting it to stop running and then tracing why it won't run while it won't run. Once you know why it won't run you should then be able to figure out what is causing it.

The side stand switch alone should never fully prevent the bike from running. For example, if the side stand switch says the side stand is down but the neutral sensor says the bike is in neutral the motor should still run. Or if the neutral switch says the bike is not in neutral but the clutch switch says the clutch is pulled in the motor should still run. So, a problem with the side stand switch could stop you from being able to ride the bike, it should not 100% stop it from running unless there are other issue as well. You could manipulate that by, for example, tricking the neutral sensor into saying the bike is always in neutral. Not something I would do long term, but something you could do on a temp basis to test if the issue is your defeat of the side stand switch.

When it stops and you try to restart it does the basic things happen when you turn the key to on? The fuel pump should run for a couple seconds, for example. When you try to start it does the motor turn over but not run? The side stand switch and it buddies the neutral sensor and clutch switch should prevent the motor from even turning over if they are to blame. My gut reflex to this is issues with the relays. Either the relays themselves or poor connections to them. In my experience they are the achilles heel of the V11. But there are also issues with the wires that go to the ignition switch and the ignition switch itself.

Also, if you measure voltage on a 12 volt wire that is making a circuit without interrupting that circuit you will typically get a reading of less then 12 volts. Also, ground issues can screw with your readings if you are not grounding directly to the negative terminal of the battery that is providing the 12 volts. Meaning, if there is a chassis ground problem and you are measuring the voltage by grounding your meter to the chassis your reading may be lower or even zero volts depending on how poorly the chassis is grounded back to the negative terminal of the battery.

Edited November 22 by GuzziMoto

[Pressureangle]

2 hours ago, OuijiVeck said:

Experienced total shutoff while running fine while touring the Addirondacks in Aug. After 2 or three times I bypassed the kick stand switch and everything was fine for the next 1000 mi.

Now getting same exact symptoms.  Runs 20 mi. Shuts completely off. Restarts after a few minute then dies aftter another 10-20 mi. Roadside splice and twist looks fine but did it again anyway. Checking voltage from battery to offending wires I'm getting 7.5v. My first instinct was just ground those out directly to the frame BUT maybe they get some unintuitive curveball voltage thru the ECU $$$ so I'm holding off. Seem those kick stand wires should be 12+ v. But my stupidity of late has been impressing me. Relays have been switched. Could the FP itself be poorly grounded? 

2nd suspect is electric Fuel petcock. What's a good test method? 

TIA

There are clues in the improvement after removing the side stand switch; that it went 1000 miles but returned to failure, and the low measured voltage, says that the sss circuit has some failure back to the source. Something common to the sss and the ECU/fuel pump has a poor connection, most likely. Everything on the bike is either 12v or 5v, if it has any low-voltage engine sensors. The sss is 12v and there is no way it can see less unless you have a circuit failure upstream. Run switch, ignition switch, relay, fuse holder, battery terminal. The easiest way to identify the failure is to measure voltage across each connection until you find the one that has 12v on the battery side and 7.5 (or whatever less, .5v is maximum allowable drop) and the drops can stack across multiple connections. 
A secondary possibility, and easier to test, is that the sss circuit is shorted to ground, pinched somewhere so contact is light, intermittent or increased by heat and vibration. Again, testing voltage at the sss point and the source point of that wire will guide you.

Edited November 22 by Pressureangle

[Tomchri]

And the rev/timing sensor. Works fine cold, dies when warm. Easy to ohm, 600/700ohm when good.

Cheers Tom.

[gstallons]

3 hours ago, OuijiVeck said:

Experienced total shutoff while running fine while touring the Addirondacks in Aug. After 2 or three times I bypassed the kick stand switch and everything was fine for the next 1000 mi.

Now getting same exact symptoms.  Runs 20 mi. Shuts completely off. Restarts after a few minute then dies aftter another 10-20 mi. Roadside splice and twist looks fine but did it again anyway. Checking voltage from battery to offending wires I'm getting 7.5v. My first instinct was just ground those out directly to the frame BUT maybe they get some unintuitive curveball voltage thru the ECU $$$ so I'm holding off. Seem those kick stand wires should be 12+ v. But my stupidity of late has been impressing me. Relays have been switched. Could the FP itself be poorly grounded? 

2nd suspect is electric Fuel petcock. What's a good test method? 

TIA

Explain everything again  .  The bike will die while running ? Does the headlight come on when you turn the ign. switch on And does the fuel pump cycle for less than 4 seconds ?  Does the engine crank when you try to engage the starter ? I'm not sure if the kickstand switch will kill the engine . I think it will when the bike is placed in gear w/the clutch lever is pulled . I can't remember ? My sidestand switch is bypassed so I can't try it on mine .

 Please explain ALL the symptoms so we can help you . 

Edited November 22 by gstallons

[Pressureangle]

5 hours ago, Tomchri said:

And the rev/timing sensor. Works fine cold, dies when warm. Easy to ohm, 600/700ohm when good.

Cheers Tom.

Must also test hot. Mine was good cold, but failed open at about 150º.

[KINDOY2]

I had a similar issue on one of my my Scura's and  I fought with it for a couple weeks, trying all sorts of different things,  it would run awesome in the shop..and then after a 20 minute ride it would start running real rough at low RPM..then finally die ..I thought it was heat related and tried all kinds of things..the side stand switch would work fine while at home, but still it finally it did turn out to be in the side stand switch adjustment bolt was just at a weird angle and would start not making good contact after it got hot......but it sounds as if  you have completely eliminated that possibility. Good luck , you'll finger it out.

Edited November 22 by KINDOY2

[guzzler]

I'm leaning towards the relays too as had similar issue a while back.

Starts fine runs for a bit then dies when given some throttle,hard to restart then runs for a bit longer....

I swapped relays round and cleaned / blew out any dust from the base and so far not happened since but of course now I've mentioned it..

Good luck with it mate.

[docc]

So, @OuijiVeck, lots of concern for your relays. While you said, "Relays have been switched ", does that mean moved around or replaced?

What actual relays are in use?

Under-rated, substandard relays are well known issue with the trouble you have.

 

[gstallons]

A quick test of the relays. If relay (start) #1 works= the engine will crank . If relay (headlight) #2 works the headlight will work. If the relay (side stand) #3 works the N light will work. If relay (ECU) #4 works the  relay  (injection ) #5 will work and the fuel pump will energize .

 These actions will all work IF everything else is in order. 

[docc]

11 hours ago, gstallons said:

A quick test of the relays. If relay (start) #1 works= the engine will crank . If relay (headlight) #2 works the headlight will work. If the relay (side stand) #3 works the N light will work. If relay (ECU) #4 works the  relay  (injection ) #5 will work and the fuel pump will energize .

 These actions will all work IF everything else is in order. 

Minor addendum: The Neutral Light will come on with the Neutral Switch, yet the middle (#3) "Sidestand"/(Neutral) Relay may still be failed.

While the "Sidestand"/Neutral Relay would not be the cause of @OuijiVeck's shut off, it could be useful for troubleshooting as the Neutral Switch/Neutral Relay (#3/middle) completely bypasses the Sidestand Switch circuitry to power the run switch.

In effect: no run condition-> shift into neutral to energize the middle relay-> bike runs-> fault in sidestand switch circuit (switch or wiring/ connector).

Damage can occur to the wiring if zip-tied too tightly to the alternator cover (seen at the 5:00 position in the image, below):